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Old 25-02-2012, 13:18   #151
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

Couple of video's of a cruising cat overtaking ex racing maxi yachts:

Drumbeat v Boomerang on Vimeo

Drumbeat v Hammer on Vimeo

Mono's don't heel more than cat's right?
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Old 25-02-2012, 14:45   #152
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
See how difficult it is... you want a slower mono for comparison, while I would want a bigger one but settled on a smaller but faster mono instead. You'll never come to a "honest" comparison I think.

Heel angle: we're talking close hauled, right? If you're at 5 degrees heel then it isn't the Caribbean and I would be at 10-12 degrees or something. When we see 20 degrees heel at sea, you won't be able to follow us I think; it'll be 40 knots of wind, 16-20' steep seas on the nose.

But I know where the difference comes from: when you say "mono" you talk about the Westsail type of mono and I immedately agree that they heel like there is no tomorrow. They are very different from modern designs that are sailed as upright as possible for optimum speed. It isn't just a Sundeer that sails relatively upright... I didn't start about moving water ballast yet, which would take another 4 degrees heel away.

I agree that cats have evolved a lot since their early days, but so have monohulls in that same period. Just look at the difference between an '80s Whitbread racer vs today's Volvo Ocean machines. They are as different as a tri vs cat.

ciao!
Nick.
We all know the Sundeer is a remarkable boat - never sails less than 250 miles in 24 hours, heels less than cats do, etc etc....

But MOST mono's do heel. (Even the canting keelers) And few are as fast as the Sundeer - for instance that claimed MINIMUM (250 miles/24 hours) of 10.41 knots would have placed around THIRD in the 2011 Sydney-Hobart race...

Truly a remarkable boat....
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Old 25-02-2012, 14:51   #153
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Not talking about Westsails, just your normal production boat - the Bene's Jeanneaus, Hunters etc... They all heel a lot more than 14 or 15 degrees, and they heel a HELL of a lot more than we do, while we are overtaking them to windward.

AYE RIGHT

Now who is into thread drift

I have yet to be passed by any production cruising cat out sailing - On passage from Nevis to Montserrat i was catching a Catana 472. It was blowing 25+ knots and the point of sail was a tight fetch. I was going to pass him to leeward but just for fun i lined up to windward of him. as we got closer to them the helmsperson decided to have a pointing contest and they hardened up - so did we - till we were both close hauled..............their boat speed went down the pan and we romped past them to windward - common sense finally got through the red mist and they bore away onto to a reach and disappeared into the distance...............BUT when we got to Montserrat and dropped the hook in Little Bay i was surprised that there was no sign of them - then about a half hour later we see them motoring dead into the wind - they anchored well away from us outside Little Bay which was rather sad as i would have loved to chat with him as the 471/472 Catana is a boat i like a lot and is almost the fastest cat i have sailed on 25 knots - exceeded only by 30 knots that we got on an Erik Lerouge Inoui 48 - almost if not actually flying a hull in flat water.

In seven years of sailing in the Caribbean I have never had a problem out performing any of the Lagoon Fountaine Pajot Robertson and Caine or Voyage cats and yes even a L440. The only cruising cat that i have had 'problems' with was a Chris White Atlantic 48 which was fast AND very appealing BUT at around ten times the cost of the 461 it XXXXXX should be. I have not yet met an Outremere out sailing but i would expect them to be fast too NOT that i would have one except in a gift. I do like the new Moorings 4600 but never had a problem sailing past one.
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Old 25-02-2012, 14:54   #154
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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yes i noticed you had difficult with your reading - my advice relax a bit - read slower and take a chill pill

I was responding to another post that had (for pedantic multihull sailors) wandered off topic.

Also what a comment from a man sailing a Lagoon 440 the boat CNB designed for the charter market to replace the too expensive to build L470 that were sold at break even prices. Just becuase i choose to sail a Monohull does not mean i dont have extensive multihull experience. The reason the L380 was/is almost at 1,000 boats built was/is due to the demand from the charter market. Ausie cats have not penetrated the mass market like the French and South African cats have so while they may be big in Australia world wide they dont represent a significant percentage of the catamarans out sailing
MMMMmmmm ok chill pill, pedantic, banghead, difficulty reading???

Australian and NZ input into the design and evolution of multihulls and monohulls has given the sailing world fantastic development, probably more so than any other country.

Next to that would be the French probably more from their Formula 40's etc.

Australia, more so, built boats for home consumption with the Whitsundays being the main charter scene albeit it is a small market there.

What does it matter the boat i choose? Our decision to purchase was based on price, comfort and location. We were never going to purchase an ex charter boat and who care's that the design brief was based on fitting into the Caribbean market?

Your knowledge of multi's was never in question by me you could be Mr Beneteau for all i know or care that just was/is not the point. The point was Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity It was not a multi bashing session.....

A multi with a 60' waterline length would be more than comparable to the 'Sundeer' and i'm sure if it wasn't built as a 'Condo' but with similar fitout to the Sundeer then the Sundeer may well get smoked.

No chill pill's required here thanks. Cheers
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Old 25-02-2012, 14:54   #155
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Highland Fling View Post
AYE RIGHT

Now who is into thread drift

I have yet to be passed by any production cruising cat out sailing - On passage from Nevis to Montserrat i was catching a Catana 472. It was blowing 25+ knots and the point of sail was a tight fetch. I was going to pass him to leeward but just for fun i lined up to windward of him. as we got closer to them the helmsperson decided to have a pointing contest and they hardened up - so did we - till we were both close hauled..............their boat speed went down the pan and we romped past them to windward - common sense finally got through the red mist and they bore away onto to a reach and disappeared into the distance...............BUT when we got to Montserrat and dropped the hook in Little Bay i was surprised that there was no sign of them - then about a half hour later we see them motoring dead into the wind - they anchored well away from us outside Little Bay which was rather sad as i would have loved to chat with him as the 471/472 Catana is a boat i like a lot and is almost the fastest cat i have sailed on 25 knots - exceeded only by 30 knots that we got on an Erik Lerouge Inoui 48 - almost if not actually flying a hull in flat water.

In seven years of sailing in the Caribbean I have never had a problem out performing any of the Lagoon Fountaine Pajot Robertson and Caine or Voyage cats and yes even a L440. The only cruising cat that i have had 'problems' with was a Chris White Atlantic 48 which was fast AND very appealing BUT at around ten times the cost of the 461 it XXXXXX should be. I have not yet met an Outremere out sailing but i would expect them to be fast too NOT that i would have one except in a gift. I do like the new Moorings 4600 but never had a problem sailing past one.
And so far I've never had a problem outsailing any production mono I've encountered....
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Old 25-02-2012, 15:04   #156
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Sundeer may well get smoked.

Cheers
Smoked Sundeer? Sounds like it would taste a bit gamey.
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Old 25-02-2012, 15:07   #157
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Smoked Sundeer? Sounds like it would taste a bit gamey.
LMAO yer full of red meat!!!! Quite honestly it would have to be a "GUNBOAT" at least 12#

Cheers.....
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Old 25-02-2012, 15:51   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

We all know the Sundeer is a remarkable boat - never sails less than 250 miles in 24 hours, heels less than cats do, etc etc....

But MOST mono's do heel. (Even the canting keelers) And few are as fast as the Sundeer - for instance that claimed MINIMUM (250 miles/24 hours) of 10.41 knots would have placed around THIRD in the 2011 Sydney-Hobart race...

Truly a remarkable boat....
It is, thank you. 10.41 knots is more than a knot under hull speed, so she doesn't even need to plane. As I wrote before, the better days are above 350nm and I know of one that is 384nm.

You need to read back on the heeling part though, because I stated to heel around 12-14 deg. When a cat heels 5 deg, which is more than double the heel of the cat at that point, not less than the cat as you try to put in my mouth with your sarcastic post

You are a bit shaken by the swiftness of the Sundeer, which is understandable, but don't forget that Jedi has a 64' waterline while most mono's that you may be familiar with are at say half that waterline. Twice the waterline gives twice the hull speed. Also, the Sundeer breaks about every racing rule. This gives her advantages that only few expect, because most boats, even cruising designs, are built to racing rules.

This is why your statement about placement in the Sydney Hobart race is completely wrong. The Sundeer, when racing, gets a penalty that makes it impossible to win on handicap.

cheers,
Nick.
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Old 25-02-2012, 16:53   #159
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
It is, thank you. 10.41 knots is more than a knot under hull speed, so she doesn't even need to plane. As I wrote before, the better days are above 350nm and I know of one that is 384nm. cheers,
Nick.
sadly Nick it looks like we have broken the golden rule

Never argue with a fool, others may not be able to tell the difference.

FINI
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Old 25-02-2012, 18:12   #160
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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sadly Nick it looks like we have broken the golden rule

Never argue with a fool, others may not be able to tell the difference.

FINI
The increase in multihull popularity has little to do with speed, as there is now enough rally and race results out there to show a heavily laden, read "cruising trim", multi is no faster than a similar modern cruising mono.

The popularity probably has more to do with a cruising cat interior being more like the prospective buyers house, than a monos' interior layout, with
large windows etc which makes the little lady , read purse controller, feel more at home.

As for highland flings quote, I'm still trying to work out who the fool is, after reading the latest carib 600 results it appears as though nick is saying his beloved fully laden sundeer is the same speed as a stripped out volvo 70 .

Outrageous, when one checks out these speed comparisons straight from the Caribbean. Sailing Results

I suspect nick uses his very large motor more than hes letting on.

Regards
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Old 25-02-2012, 18:39   #161
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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The increase in multihull popularity has little to do with speed, as there is now enough rally and race results out there to show a heavily laden, read "cruising trim", multi is no faster than a similar modern cruising mono.

The popularity probably has more to do with a cruising cat interior being more like the prospective buyers house, than a monos' interior layout, with
large windows etc which makes the little lady , read purse controller, feel more at home.

As for highland flings quote, I'm still trying to work out who the fool is, after reading the latest carib 600 results it appears as though nick is saying his beloved fully laden sundeer is the same speed as a stripped out volvo 70 .

Outrageous, when one checks out these speed comparisons straight from the Caribbean. Sailing Results

I suspect nick uses his very large motor more than hes letting on.

Regards
Now I'm a bit confused, but that happens alot. If I read the sailing results correctly, then the Volvo 70 averaged 12 kts. Did I miscalculate? Is it a 600 nm race?
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Old 25-02-2012, 18:41   #162
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

"Twice the waterline gives twice the hull speed"

Oh, Jedi, Jedi, Jedi, do we have to do the math? It's a function of square root of waterline length, that's why a 35 footer can be respectable to a 50 footer in the right conditions.

I would rather deal with the slower monohulls on a reaching course. When we go close hauled, I may have to split away on a lower course. Not at hull speed, at V=.8windspeed.
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Old 25-02-2012, 18:43   #163
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Re: Explanation for the Increase in Multihull Popularity

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sadly Nick it looks like we have broken the golden rule

Never argue with a fool, others may not be able to tell the difference.

FINI
Sad that a reasonable question drifts so far that personal comments are made.....


Cheers.....
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Old 25-02-2012, 18:47   #164
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Sad that a reasonable question drifts so far that personal comments are made.....

Cheers.....
Agree, stay nice Highland

ciao!
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Old 25-02-2012, 18:58   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaimusailing
"Twice the waterline gives twice the hull speed"

Oh, Jedi, Jedi, Jedi, do we have to do the math? It's a function of square root of waterline length, that's why a 35 footer can be respectable to a 50 footer in the right conditions.

I would rather deal with the slower monohulls on a reaching course. When we go close hauled, I may have to split away on a lower course. Not at hull speed, at V=.8windspeed.
I was gonna get away with it Glad you caught it.

But the 35 footer isn't gonna have a higher hull speed than a 50 footer of course so you must mean simething else with that.

On to reaching, good, that is what Sundeers were built for... blue water sledge etc. With enough wind, say tradewinds, and a crew that ain't scared, we can do 20+ knots, design speed is 26 knots. Still wanna "deal" with us?

You'll probably not believe it but lucky enough Steve Dashew put it on Youtube :



cheers,
Nick.
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