Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-12-2016, 12:20   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Caribbean
Boat: Leopard 38
Posts: 146
Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Hello.

Does anyone have experience or advice with the exchange of old diesel engines with car engines on a catamaran?
Our Leopard is shaft driven by 2 old Westerbeke engines, still running, but we are thinking about installing good and newer VW diesel.
We guess the cooling system will be the biggest adventure.

Would love to hear your opinion. Thanks in advance.
ak5609 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-12-2016, 12:52   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 604
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

ALH engine been installed everywhere, including aircraft. Here's of the installations in boat:
alh m-Tdi marinisation to match Mercruiser Gen1 drive - TDIClub Forums
ranchero76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-12-2016, 13:53   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NE
Posts: 56
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

This topic has been much discussed in other threads. I think you'll find that sorting out a proper governor is the biggest expense/ most complicated part of converting auto engines to marine.
RidgeRunner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-12-2016, 15:24   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: KH 49x, Custom
Posts: 1,759
Images: 2
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Ok, I have to comment about the governor.

It's a common misconception that a boat uses a different governor than a car. That's not the case. I'd hate to have a variable speed governor on a boat while trying to dock. Can you imagine not having complete control of your engine speed whilst docking?

The governor on a boat is the same as that on a car. A pleasure boat uses a limiting speed governor, just like a car.

PS. I took a quick look at that link, and I would say he spent a lot of time reinventing the wheel there. The bellhousing is a standard bellhousing available at most customizing shops (I believe it's an SAE #4)

The exhaust (non turbo) can be scavenged from an old Pathfinder diesel, or bought from the UK. I can't remember the name of the company, but they sell marinizing kits for many different engines.

I don't have time at the moment to elaborate, but I'm using alh engines with zf25 transmissions, and a custom starter from california, which I can give you the name if you're really interested. I've also had the injection pumps converted to "non electric", so I can use a normal throttle cable setup.
Cheers.
Paul.
GRIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-12-2016, 15:53   #5
Registered User
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 25,483
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Not sure why the governor will be a problem, but finding a water cooled exhaust manifold and transmission and bellhousing etc could definitely be. The marinized VW diesels were terrible, but their more recent car ones seem great. Probably different engines.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-12-2016, 15:55   #6
Registered User
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: ‘01 Catana 401
Posts: 9,626
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by RidgeRunner View Post
This topic has been much discussed in other threads. I think you'll find that sorting out a proper governor is the biggest expense/ most complicated part of converting auto engines to marine.

I would like some clarification on this. The governor simply maintains speed independent of load for a given throttle setting. As an aside the governor prevents overspend.
Sailmonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-12-2016, 19:53   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 604
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by svquintana View Post
The exhaust (non turbo) can be scavenged from an old Pathfinder diesel, or bought from the UK. I can't remember the name of the company, but they sell marinizing kits for many different engines.

I don't have time at the moment to elaborate, but I'm using alh engines with zf25 transmissions, and a custom starter from california, which I can give you the name if you're really interested. I've also had the injection pumps converted to "non electric", so I can use a normal throttle cable setup.
Cheers.
Paul.
Could you provide more information about all things you've mentioned (here or via PM)? (bell housing, exhaust, starter and mechanical injection pump conversion). I'm very interested. I actually have few ALH engines, keeping in mind these can be easily tuned to 140hp, that would be KILLER setup for any size catamaran. Parts are cheap and easy to get, reliable, easy maintenance. It's simply unbeatable combination.
ranchero76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-12-2016, 20:01   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 604
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
I would like some clarification on this. The governor simply maintains speed independent of load for a given throttle setting. As an aside the governor prevents overspend.
Prop is always in same environment (water), load never change (unless boat turned upside down or prop starts grinding the shore, but in these situations you will have a little more important things (than engine speed) to worry about). I think, simple engine speed control via throttle pedal connected to lever is adequate here.
ranchero76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-12-2016, 02:55   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: KH 49x, Custom
Posts: 1,759
Images: 2
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Hello Ranchero, thanks for your interest.

The bellhousing: After thinking about it, I'm pretty sure it's an SAE #5, 8 bolts.
It has the starter facing "forward" on the exhaust side of the engine. The normal alh bellhousing has the starter facing aft towards the tranny.

The flywheel is doubled, with the original flywheel (without the ringear and the centre cut out) adding weight to what I remember as being a vw Fox flywheel. As I recall, the fox flywheel has the proper offset for the teeth to meet the starter in it's "forward" position. John, at pathfinder (you can still find him on ebay selling pathfinder parts), can elaborate on this. The lighter flywheel would likely work fine without the old one added for weight, but that weight will make the engine run more smoothly. I think the combo weighed about 25 lbs.

The starter is from "hi torque". It's basically a VW fox starter layout, (they build new, and do a beautiful job of it) but I had them "clock" the starter solenoid by about 20 degrees to give more clearance from the engine block, otherwise it's jammed to the block. It would work as original, with a little grinding work, but the alh has more girth than the Fox engine, and I didn't like the looks of it. I believe they saved the configuration for me, so it shouldn't be too hard to order one.

Engine exhaust is from a 1.6l vw pathfinder. The 1.6 was an idi, so there'll be no problem with cooling the 1.9 ALH since it's a Direct Injection engine and runs cooler.

water pump">Raw water pump is the one used on the Volvo v8 engines, with a "half cam" installed (puts out half the water of "normal" for the pump) about 8 gal a minute. It's a crank mounted pump, so the install is fairly easily done. I got a machine shop to make new hub to fit my crankshaft.

Cooling block at the back of the head: You'll want to make a new "block" to accommodate the water manifold (that steel tube with all the outlets) going to the water pump, oil filter and such. The new block ( I call it that because it's just a block of aluminum drilled and tapped with npt fittings, and bolted to the back of the head) just makes things more neat, without so many plugs, and over length coolant hoses. The block changes the angles of the inlets to go around the vac pump and to the heat exchanger mounted under the exhaust, and you can eliminate some of the outlets.

The injection pump, as you know, is electrically controlled. Gyles at Performance Diesel Injection, is well known in the TDI forums. He cleverly converted my pumps to mecanical control, and also converted them to be used on SDI engines, which are "non turbo" and put out 60 hp. I got him to match the torque curve of the industrial SDI engines, which I thought would be most appropriate for our needs.

Transmission: I'm using the zf25, which is hydraulic, but the mechanical one would work fine. You could go smaller, but this one is "work duty" for this engine, so should last the life of the engine. I bought mine from Simplicity marine in Fla. They also sell the adapter/mounting plate, and the damper plate. I had to cut 8mm from the end of the input shaft, or you could install a spacer in between the adapter plate and the bellhousing.


To use turbos on these engines would be a little more complicated, but you could mount the turbo at the end of the pathfinder exhaust manifold without too much issue. Now if you're looking for 140 hp, I'm not going to comment on the suitability of any of the stuff I've used, except the starter, you'll be good there.

Engine mounts are custom at the front of the engine, I'm sure you can figure something out there, or use the original mount and build a gantry bracket to the boat. The back mounts are on the bellhousing.

Alternator is original, but the belt is custom order (shorter than normal) and just runs from the damper to the alternator with the tensioner in-between. I also had the regulator removed and wired the alternator to a Balmar regulator.

I cut the bracket for the air compressor off to make room for my engine beds, but you could accommodate the compressor if you wanted to.

That should cover most of it. Good luck.

You can contact me via e-mail at my username, using the gmail server.

Cheers.
Paul.
GRIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-12-2016, 03:50   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 604
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

That's very useful info, thanks! Any photos of custom fabricated parts and/or finished installation? IMHO, that's smart thing - to place one mount in front, where was original mount on the car, and the rest - bolt to the bell housing.
I not looking to get 140hp or more out of ALH, but I would keep turbo for sure. I wouldn't be afraid to use original electronic injection pump and computer control, as these are quite reliable, and there's no problem at all of carrying spare set of ECU, injection pump, sensors - everything is available, affordable and not heavy, easy to repair/replace and to do maintenance.
ranchero76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-12-2016, 03:51   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2011
Boat: KH 49x, Custom
Posts: 1,759
Images: 2
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Corrections: The coolant block has a hose running to the exhaust manifold, not the heat exchanger.

I cut the bracket for the AC compressor, not the air compressor.

Cheers.
Paul.
GRIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-12-2016, 06:19   #12
Registered User
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: ‘01 Catana 401
Posts: 9,626
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranchero76 View Post
Prop is always in same environment (water), load never change (unless boat turned upside down or prop starts grinding the shore, but in these situations you will have a little more important things (than engine speed) to worry about). I think, simple engine speed control via throttle pedal connected to lever is adequate here.

Ummmmm, load changes a lot based on seastate, wind loading etc. the cable connected to the lever on the engine still runs through a governor.
Sailmonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-12-2016, 08:28   #13
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Vienna, Austria
Boat: Vagabond 47
Posts: 922
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Our Leopard is shaft driven by 2 old Westerbeke engines, still running, but we are thinking about installing good and newer VW diesel.

1. marinization is tricky - prepare 2500 USD per engine extra
2. thank god every day that you have old - low rpm engines without turbo and electronics

I have and old Ford Lehman 85hp and I think the engine has never been manufactured since her build at 1981!!! - yes there are problems here and there on the peripherals like heat exchangers etc. but the engine itself is running like charm.
moseriw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-12-2016, 08:36   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 797
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

I would be more concerned about getting the VW ECU to play nice - there are so many sensors on the new TDI engines I doubt the mechanical aspect of the conversion is the problem.

For example if the ECU doesn't like the exhaust data it is seeing - it'll throw the engine into this limp mode, happened to my daughter on a road trip. She's since ditched that VW.
SV DestinyAscen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-12-2016, 08:42   #15
Registered User
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: ‘01 Catana 401
Posts: 9,626
Re: Exchange Westerbe Diesel with VW diesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV DestinyAscen View Post
I would be more concerned about getting the VW ECU to play nice - there are so many sensors on the new TDI engines I doubt the mechanical aspect of the conversion is the problem.

For example if the ECU doesn't like the exhaust data it is seeing - it'll throw the engine into this limp mode, happened to my daughter on a road trip. She's since ditched that VW.
This would be one of my primary concerns, modern diesels have become so complex in regards to sensors that they would not be my first choice for use far away from assistance. As a for instance, a friend of mine with a Ford F-250 diesel had one of three exhaust gas temp sensors go out 15 miles down the beach from the nearest pavement. The truck was still running but not with enough power to move in the sand. He now carries in the glove box a spare sensor.
Sailmonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
diesel

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruisersforum Book Exchange? sneuman The Library 5 13-03-2008 09:59
Stock exchange VieuxMalin Liveaboard's Forum 18 22-02-2008 15:52
World Wide Home exchange Princewig Flotsam & Sailing Miscellany 4 02-12-2006 08:23
P2P MARINE MAP EXCHANGE sinbad7 Navigation 2 27-12-2005 11:37
Dock Exchange GordMay The Library 0 06-10-2003 03:50

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:31.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.