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Old 23-02-2014, 12:20   #1
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Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

Does anyone know whether the current crop of Outremer Catamarans uses Epoxy, Vinylester or Polyester in their Fiber Glass? For a variety of reasons I'd like my boat NOT to have any polyester in it and I'm finding it hard to figure out what they are using. Much to my surprise their marketing materials are unclear.



Love to get the same answer for Christ White boats as well. And if you know of other similar Cats that are NOT using Polyester I'd love to hear about them.

Thank you!

James.

PS I'm not looking for a debate on what's better - just looking for the facts - although I know that's waaaay more boring. :-)
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Old 23-02-2014, 12:24   #2
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

If they are not advertising vinylester or epoxy then it is surely .......
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Old 23-02-2014, 12:33   #3
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

{sigh} I cannot argue with your logic.

:-(
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Old 23-02-2014, 12:56   #4
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

Outremer 5X

From the 2013 brochure.


CONSTRUCTION
At the heart of Outremer’s long history is the ability to control weight and build a strong, seaworthy catamaran. We achieve this result through the exceptional quality of our build team, the meticulous attention throughout the construction of our boats and by the
implementation of demanding quality control procedures.

HULLS
Hulls infused with monolithic polyester below the waterline and PVC polyester sandwich above, with reinforced bilges for better strength and resistance to impact:
- Special NPG gelcoat
- Vinylester barrier coating on the external skin
- Manual lamination of the hull/deck bond
- Laminated bulkheads assembled with flanges on both sides

DECK AND OTHER
Deck infused in PVC sandwich for performance and insulation, glued and then laminated over the whole length of the joint, which gives it exceptional strength Polyester daggerboard cases: monolithic structure for higher strength Composite daggerboards
Composite rudders on aluminum stocks




Cheers Rob
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Old 23-02-2014, 13:02   #5
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

A47:
Hulls, decks, bulkheads and pilothouse are constructed from vacuum bagged BASF Palatal A430 Epoxy-Vinylester resin and high performance glass laminate cored with PVC foam. All exterior surfaces are spray painted with Alexseal (TM) linear polyurethane coating.

A57:
Hulls, decks and pilothouse are constructed from vacuum bagged SP Systems Ampreg epoxy resin and high performance glass laminate cored with “Core-Cell” SAN foam and PVC foam. All exterior surfaces are spray painted with linear polyurethane coating.

Many of the other White boats were somewhat custom and were built with cove and bead strips typically in cedar and laminated with epoxy. They ended up pretty light, too.

Maine Cat 41:
Hull and deck are composite construction utilizing vacuum-bagged Core-Cell structural foam core, vinylester and polyester resins with biaxial and triaxial fiberglass fabrics.

The older Lagoon TPIs were infused vinylester. Way ahead of their time for a 20+ year old boat.

FWIW many modern boats use vinylester below the waterline.
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Old 23-02-2014, 13:04   #6
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

Outremers are polyester? I'm amazed. And disappointed.
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Old 23-02-2014, 13:06   #7
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

Pretty normal...lot's of manufacturers advertise vinylester but it's only a couple layers...

HULLS
Hulls infused with monolithic polyester below the waterline and PVC polyester sandwich above, with reinforced bilges for better strength and resistance to impact:
- Special NPG gelcoat
- Vinylester barrier coating on the external skin
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Old 23-02-2014, 13:18   #8
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Outremers are polyester? I'm amazed. And disappointed.


2012 Catana 59, Gust of Wind at euro 1.680.000

GRP hull are made in infusion Foam Sandwich, with vinylester and Polyester resin.

More disappointment!

Cheers Rob
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Old 23-02-2014, 14:20   #9
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

Many, if not most boatbuilders who build with a styrene based resin use a vinylester resin as a skin coat at least. Some switch over to an isothalic polyester (commonly known as GP or general purpose resin) or orthothalic polyester resin for the rest of the lamination matrix. The skin coat of VE is very resistant to blistering but if the laminate and structure is designed appropriately, the higher strength ($$) resins are not always in the build.

There are also blends such as Sand Crab mentioned, epoxy/vinylester (I kinda prefer this one).

In terms of strength, lowest to highest, isothalic, orthothalic, vinylester and some form of epoxy. There are other resins out there but are not typically used in "normal" boatbuilding. Dollar signs (or whatever your local currency) also increase in that order.

So.... just because a boat is not built with epoxy doesn't mean it isn't a well built boat. Much of that comes from processing (read, human) execution.
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Old 23-02-2014, 16:43   #10
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

I work with both epoxy and poly everyday, laminating and finishing. Both resins have pros and cons. It all comes down to WHO is using the resins, and HOW...

You can build a perfectly strong boat with poly, and it isn't as finicky as epoxy - laminates can be left to cure, no sanding between layers, with no fear of blush is a big one. You can also tailor your cure times to suit whatever substrate you are using to achieve maximum bonding, etc.. Epoxy has a set mix ratio, so you have to work within certain timeframes.

Epoxy is of course easier to use in some cases, is an amazing adhesive, and naturally hydrophobic. But has weird issues laminating, fish eyes like crazy, and requires a extra clean work space.

Not too familiar with vynlester, but hear good things... shrug...

If you buy from a builder with good reputation, it shouldn't really matter, imho.
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Old 23-02-2014, 17:09   #11
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Thumbs up Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

Your all very interesting.
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Old 23-02-2014, 18:25   #12
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

Quote:
Originally Posted by twinzerfan View Post
But has weird issues laminating,
Like?
Quote:
fish eyes like crazy,
Cheap epoxy full of solvent by the sounds of it
Quote:
and requires a extra clean work space.
many people building epoxy boats have open ended sheds with dirt floors. The actual bit where the resin is going is clean of course as it should be in any laminate.
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Old 24-02-2014, 10:51   #13
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

I never worked with vinyl either but I heard it is real finicky about humidity.

And there are almost no production cats using all epoxy except Gunboats. By production i mean a builder who has constructed molds first.
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Old 24-02-2014, 13:03   #14
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multihull View Post
2012 Catana 59, Gust of Wind at euro 1.680.000

GRP hull are made in infusion Foam Sandwich, with vinylester and Polyester resin.

More disappointment!

Cheers Rob
Was already disappointed by their weight. 43 feet 10 tonnes, 60 feet 20 tonnes...
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Old 24-02-2014, 15:15   #15
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Re: Epoxy vs. Vinylester vs. Polyester in production Catamarans

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Was already disappointed by their weight. 43 feet 10 tonnes, 60 feet 20 tonnes...
You know, that blows my mind that a cat weighs that much.
I'm the "lead hauler" and I'm 10 tons.
It must be the big screen tvs and dishwashers you guys have
In them boats.
Yesterday a motorboater here in the anchorage told me he was 33,000lbs,
I flipped out!
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