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Old 23-03-2008, 05:49   #1
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Engine position

Have been seriously looking at what engines I am going to use in the barge.
The designer originally spec'd 30 HP Nannis when they weighed 165 Kg but they have become more obese and now wiegh 186 Kg. I am going to use 20 HP Lombardinis which weigh 125 Kg each, saving 120 Kg overall. the "Wilderness " can be built with either diesels under the aft berth or retractable outboards further aft of the next bulkhead. I noticed how much smaller the Lombardini is and realised that it will fit where the outboard would normally go. This is appealing as I am still considering a galley down and this would free up enough space to achieve that. I did a quick check and the lighter motor further aft has a 10% lower moment of inertia than the standard setup so that isn't a problem.

So now I am left pondering the pros and cons of motors under the berths or ones that are accessed from the aft steps.
Aft steps a lot easier to do routine checks and operate thru hulls but more dangerous in weather. They get the stink out of the accomodation and should be somewhat quieter. They also better isolate the wet stuff from the inside.
The more forward location of the lighter motors would reduce the moments even further but I can't decide if that is a pro or a con as it would increase the speed of longitudinal motion.

Any thoughts available from the more enlightened here?

Mike
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Old 23-03-2008, 06:27   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimsical View Post
Have been seriously looking at what engines I am going to use in the barge.
The designer originally spec'd 30 HP Nannis when they weighed 165 Kg but they have become more obese and now wiegh 186 Kg. I am going to use 20 HP Lombardinis which weigh 125 Kg each, saving 120 Kg overall. the "Wilderness " can be built with either diesels under the aft berth or retractable outboards further aft of the next bulkhead. I noticed how much smaller the Lombardini is and realised that it will fit where the outboard would normally go. This is appealing as I am still considering a galley down and this would free up enough space to achieve that. I did a quick check and the lighter motor further aft has a 10% lower moment of inertia than the standard setup so that isn't a problem.

So now I am left pondering the pros and cons of motors under the berths or ones that are accessed from the aft steps.
Aft steps a lot easier to do routine checks and operate thru hulls but more dangerous in weather. They get the stink out of the accomodation and should be somewhat quieter. They also better isolate the wet stuff from the inside.
The more forward location of the lighter motors would reduce the moments even further but I can't decide if that is a pro or a con as it would increase the speed of longitudinal motion.

Any thoughts available from the more enlightened here?

Mike
Hallo Mike

Is there no way in installing the engines midships like was done in the earlyer St Francis 43 and 44 ? they where build in on the inner side of the hull very close to the centre of gravity. The saildrive legs pointed straight down while the engine bed that is provided can be sawn off to fit the angle of the hull on the inside.
You accomplish many advantages here
1.You bring the weight to where it is best , close to the centre of gravity
2.Noise is away from the sleeping quarters
3.With a box build around it that can be removed it is very easy to work on them
4. making turn with your engines will give your boat the ability to turn on a dime.
The Lombardinis are only 500 mm wide , 488 to be exact so you would need 600 mm from the side of your hull to place them there and that includes the box around them.
The only question remains can you than walk around them going forward.
I always loved the solution that Angelo Lavranos made and the hull of the 44 where very slim.
p.s. Illbruck from Switserland has made a special noise dampening foam exactly for these engines. ,They did that for us and it is called Iltec VB 40
They did a noise study for our cat see attachement and this foam works wonders and weights almost nothing

Good luck
Gideon
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Acoustic study African Cats.pdf (143.0 KB, 118 views)
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Old 23-03-2008, 06:29   #3
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do yourself a favor and get the optional 100 amp alternators , the extra cost is minimal while the advantages are huge.
gideon
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Old 23-03-2008, 06:37   #4
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Hi Mike - it looks like you have the pros and cons identified.

How about one forward and one aft? Report back in a couple years which one you like better.

Seriously, this clearly comes down to personal prefererence and what is most important to you. During my lengthy research I chartered cats with engines in both locations and concluded I like the engine room versions better. Yep, these are not optimum from a weight distribution standpoint, but for me the ease of access, having isolated watertight bulkheads, and no engine smells in the living spaces carry the day. Now having a boat with this arrangement, I'm glad I do after having it for a while.

No right or wrong here - you get to decide. Good luck. But aft is better.

Dave
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Old 23-03-2008, 06:41   #5
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Not sure if my catalogue is out of date but I picked it up at the London Boat Show in Jan 2008 but it quotes the 21hp Nanni (Saildrive) at 113kg and the 29hp at 138kg. Might be worth checking, I am not intimately familiar with the Lombardini (assume they are marine versions of small tractorengines but the Nanni's are 1st class, I have any number of people who will testify to that.

Regards

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Old 23-03-2008, 07:03   #6
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Not sure if my catalogue is out of date but I picked it up at the London Boat Show in Jan 2008 but it quotes the 21hp Nanni (Saildrive) at 113kg and the 29hp at 138kg. Might be worth checking, I am not intimately familiar with the Lombardini (assume they are marine versions of small tractorengines but the Nanni's are 1st class, I have any number of people who will testify to that.

Regards

Richard
Plus gearbox ???
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Old 23-03-2008, 07:18   #7
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I stand corrected the 21hp Nanni with Saildrive is 129kg, not much more than the Lombardini.

Richard
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Old 23-03-2008, 07:21   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffflinger View Post
Not sure if my catalogue is out of date but I picked it up at the London Boat Show in Jan 2008 but it quotes the 21hp Nanni (Saildrive) at 113kg and the 29hp at 138kg. Might be worth checking, I am not intimately familiar with the Lombardini (assume they are marine versions of small tractorengines but the Nanni's are 1st class, I have any number of people who will testify to that.

Regards

Richard
I think Cat Man Do must be right, the latest wieghts checked from the factory are 144 and 186 Kg dry with sail drive but no fiberglass bed.

Mike
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Old 23-03-2008, 07:25   #9
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The Standard engine beds Lombardini is supplied with have a weight of 20.5 kilo each and are made of chopped strand matt and gell coat
we took a mould of this engine bed and resin infused new engine beds with a weight of 10.5 kilo each in epoxy not much saved but every kilo counts and the total of 18 is pure profit.
good luck.
p.s. Nannis use mitsubishi diesel good quality but noisy and a lot of vibration abouth 17 kilos in weight difference each
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Old 23-03-2008, 07:27   #10
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Mike

I just took my numbers from the Nanni Website.

http://www.nannifigaro.com/EXTRANET%...N3.21%20EN.pdf

Regards

Richard
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Old 23-03-2008, 07:31   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
Hallo Mike

Is there no way in installing the engines midships like was done in the earlyer St Francis 43 and 44 ? they where build in on the inner side of the hull very close to the centre of gravity. The saildrive legs pointed straight down while the engine bed that is provided can be sawn off to fit the angle of the hull on the inside.
You accomplish many advantages here
1.You bring the weight to where it is best , close to the centre of gravity
2.Noise is away from the sleeping quarters
3.With a box build around it that can be removed it is very easy to work on them
4. making turn with your engines will give your boat the ability to turn on a dime.
The Lombardinis are only 500 mm wide , 488 to be exact so you would need 600 mm from the side of your hull to place them there and that includes the box around them.
The only question remains can you than walk around them going forward.
I always loved the solution that Angelo Lavranos made and the hull of the 44 where very slim.
p.s. Illbruck from Switserland has made a special noise dampening foam exactly for these engines. ,They did that for us and it is called Iltec VB 40
They did a noise study for our cat see attachement and this foam works wonders and weights almost nothing

Good luck
Gideon
With 12:1 hulls I don't see how it could be done without some sort of protrusion on the inside of the hull and still get past it, especially with the galley in hull and I certainly wouldn't do that. This also puts the stink back inside. It would also increase draft quite substantially as I have no keels only daggers.
How much for you to supply me with the foam, Maybe a PM.

Mike
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Old 23-03-2008, 07:39   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
The Standard engine beds Lombardini is supplied with have a weight of 20.5 kilo each and are made of chopped strand matt and gell coat
we took a mould of this engine bed and resin infused new engine beds with a weight of 10.5 kilo each in epoxy not much saved but every kilo counts and the total of 18 is pure profit.
good luck.
p.s. Nannis use mitsubishi diesel good quality but noisy and a lot of vibration abouth 17 kilos in weight difference each
Actually the Nanni is based on Kubota. The 20HP is a 719cc D722 and the 30 is based on a D905.
Holy **** batman I was assured the bed was about 9Kg, am going to see him on Tuesday so I will take the scales. May have to do the same as you have.

Mike
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Old 23-03-2008, 07:42   #13
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Originally Posted by Fluffflinger View Post
I stand corrected the 21hp Nanni with Saildrive is 129kg, not much more than the Lombardini.

Richard
I have seen several versions of the brouchers and they all claim differing wieghts. I got the agent to check with the factory as I would not accept them if they were too heavy and he came back with 144 + bed so I passed

Mike
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Old 23-03-2008, 07:49   #14
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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
Hi Mike - it looks like you have the pros and cons identified.

How about one forward and one aft? Report back in a couple years which one you like better.
You may be joking but I was originally going to reverse the port motor and having it straddle one of the bulkheads. This would have provided enough room to move the head back to then have galley down.

Yes the decision is the hard bit.
I used to be indecisive but now I am not too sure

Mike
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Old 23-03-2008, 08:03   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimsical View Post
Actually the Nanni is based on Kubota. The 20HP is a 719cc D722 and the 30 is based on a D905.
Holy **** batman I was assured the bed was about 9Kg, am going to see him on Tuesday so I will take the scales. May have to do the same as you have.

Mike

Hallo Mike

the cost of the foam is 75 euro per squire meter plus shipping the weight is nothing so that will cheap it comes with a self adhesive backing it is 40 mm thick and is non absorbing for water or oils
Why not look into the silette drives liftable so you could maybe place your engines on the bridgedeck or in betwen the deck and hull
These saildrives come to a lenght of 1.2 meters and are liftable no more folding prop and all the added resistance and electrolysis

Sonic Type Two

Greetings
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