Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 23-03-2008, 08:14   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Fremantle Australia
Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction
Posts: 558
Send a message via Skype™ to Whimsical
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
Hallo Mike

the cost of the foam is 75 euro per squire meter plus shipping the weight is nothing so that will cheap it comes with a self adhesive backing it is 40 mm thick and is non absorbing for water or oils
Why not look into the silette drives liftable so you could maybe place your engines on the bridgedeck or in betwen the deck and hull
These saildrives come to a lenght of 1.2 meters and are liftable no more folding prop and all the added resistance and electrolysis

Sonic Type Two

Greetings
$75 per meter is about $125 Aus per meter. Thanks for the spectrum analysis I will check some local suppliers to see whats available here before I rob a bank. Should check with Wheels as this is his area of expertise.
I looked at the silette drives and wasn't realy impressed. Expensive, heavy and motors end up on the bridge deck. At 1.2 meters the props would be almost surface piercing

Mike
__________________

__________________
Whimsical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2008, 09:01   #17
Registered User
 
Nordic cat's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Boat: FP Tobago 35
Posts: 721
I second 2Hulls idea. Keep the engines totally isolated from the rest of the boat! Reasons have already been stated.

I have my engine under the aft berth on my present boat, and regardless how clean I keep them, there is always a waft of diesel/hot engine/lubeoil at some stage.

On my new boat, I have designed the engine hatches (hinged at forward edge) to include some of the transom steps. This way, the step down is smaller, and I can lift out the complete engine and saildrive if need be.

To ease maintenance further, I have put the saildrive at the forward end, up against the aft cabin bulkhead, as this normally doesn't need as much maintenance. All the belts and stuff are much easier to get to, and props won't come out of the water so easily.

You can mount the saildrives inboard, at an angle of 30-40 degrees from the vertical, F41 do this sometimes. Just extend the oil filling tube, to ensure that the whole gearbox is covered in oil. I have a drawing somewhere, if you want it.

Regards

Alan
__________________

__________________
Nordic cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2008, 11:16   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
On my new boat, I have designed the engine hatches (hinged at forward edge) to include some of the transom steps. This way, the step down is smaller, and I can lift out the complete engine and saildrive if need be.
I had completely forgotten about this aspect Alan points out.

The previous owner of my boat had to remove an engine and the existing access via the aft hatch allowed it.

They rigged an extension on the boom to attach a chain fall and provided extra support to this ad hoc gin pole with the main halyard.

Dave
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCN1038.jpg
Views:	88
Size:	51.6 KB
ID:	3064   Click image for larger version

Name:	DSCN1042.jpg
Views:	76
Size:	58.7 KB
ID:	3065  

__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2008, 11:27   #19
Marine Service Provider
 
fastcat435's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Amstelveen Netherlands
Boat: FastCat 445 Green Motion
Posts: 1,649
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to fastcat435
I was thinking of putting them in at a 30 degree angle from your hull mounting the slightly raised but off course I do not know the design of your Cat.
The idea of taking them from the water when sailing appeals very much to me but then only if it is feasable.
Yes the foam is expensive I agree but silence is important to me.
Must be because they bare a swiss company and still bleeding for that volvo ocean race they won 5 years ago.
__________________
fastcat435 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-03-2008, 11:52   #20
Registered User
 
Nordic cat's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Boat: FP Tobago 35
Posts: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
I had completely forgotten about this aspect Alan points out.

The previous owner of my boat had to remove an engine and the existing access via the aft hatch allowed it.

Dave
If the hatch included the top step in the picture, the whole engine room would be much easier to get in and out of, and not nearly as claustrophobic.

Regards

Alan
__________________
Nordic cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2008, 00:21   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Fremantle Australia
Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction
Posts: 558
Send a message via Skype™ to Whimsical
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
I have my engine under the aft berth on my present boat, and regardless how clean I keep them, there is always a waft of diesel/hot engine/lubeoil at some stage.

On my new boat, I have designed the engine hatches (hinged at forward edge) to include some of the transom steps. This way, the step down is smaller, and I can lift out the complete engine and saildrive if need be.

To ease maintenance further, I have put the saildrive at the forward end, up against the aft cabin bulkhead, as this normally doesn't need as much maintenance. All the belts and stuff are much easier to get to, and props won't come out of the water so easily.
I hate the smell of diesel so that is probably the biggest attraction for me.

The plans are drawn the where the hatch forms almost all of the steps. There is 70 mm clearance between the top of the motor and the underside of one of the steps, the next step up is another 250mm. The hull is about 900mm wide at this point, so access is wonderful. Removal would be very easy which only adds to the pro's for this arrangement.

I had also assumed that saildrive forward would be the best arrangement for exactly those reasons and also if it were the other way around it would interfere with the rudder. Back to front I will have the prop about 300mm in front of the rudder.

I drew up the hull shapes over a drawing of the motor and I doubt that you could design a better fit if you tried, it is perfect.
The more I look at it the more convinced this is how it should be.

Mike
__________________
Whimsical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2008, 00:35   #22
Marine Service Provider
 
fastcat435's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Amstelveen Netherlands
Boat: FastCat 445 Green Motion
Posts: 1,649
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to fastcat435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimsical View Post
I hate the smell of diesel so that is probably the biggest attraction for me.

The plans are drawn the where the hatch forms almost all of the steps. There is 70 mm clearance between the top of the motor and the underside of one of the steps, the next step up is another 250mm. The hull is about 900mm wide at this point, so access is wonderful. Removal would be very easy which only adds to the pro's for this arrangement.

I had also assumed that saildrive forward would be the best arrangement for exactly those reasons and also if it were the other way around it would interfere with the rudder. Back to front I will have the prop about 300mm in front of the rudder.

I drew up the hull shapes over a drawing of the motor and I doubt that you could design a better fit if you tried, it is perfect.
The more I look at it the more convinced this is how it should be.

Mike

Why not go electric hybrid with a single generator
2 x 9 Kw motors will do the job easy.

Greetings
__________________
fastcat435 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2008, 00:41   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Fremantle Australia
Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction
Posts: 558
Send a message via Skype™ to Whimsical
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
I was thinking of putting them in at a 30 degree angle from your hull mounting the slightly raised but off course I do not know the design of your Cat.
The idea of taking them from the water when sailing appeals very much to me but then only if it is feasable.
Yes the foam is expensive I agree but silence is important to me.
Must be because they bare a swiss company and still bleeding for that volvo ocean race they won 5 years ago.
At one stage I had considered doing this but the suppliers were not keen to say the least, no warranty.
I would dearly love a retractable and steerable drive but that would only happen with electric and I don't think thats close enough yet for me, maybe another 5 years.

Apart from the smell and intrusion into the accomodation that a central location would cause my biggest concern is upsetting the LCG. The aft of the boat is designed to carry the wieght and to remove 350Kg from 3.5 meters back and locating it near the LCG would, I presume, result in a bow down attitude. How much I don't know. As it is lighter motors slightly further back still have 120 Kg/Mtr less moment.

Mike
__________________
Whimsical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2008, 00:43   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Fremantle Australia
Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction
Posts: 558
Send a message via Skype™ to Whimsical
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
Why not go electric hybrid with a single generator
2 x 9 Kw motors will do the job easy.

Greetings
Would realy love to but
Cost

Mike
__________________
Whimsical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2008, 00:54   #25
Marine Service Provider
 
fastcat435's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Amstelveen Netherlands
Boat: FastCat 445 Green Motion
Posts: 1,649
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to fastcat435
We are gearing up production this European summer June July so cost will start to come down and with the batteries and gen set you can balance your boat in any way you want
A motor,wiring harnass, prop,controllerand control handle, anode and fuse boxes
will come down to Euro 12400,00 this is without the hydraulic actuator or pump
but there are many ways in lifting the unit not so costly.
We have completed the test in our basin of 3000 hours and are now fitting the first set to a monohull in the Netherlands and a dual set to a Fastcat 455 in South Africa

Greetings
__________________
fastcat435 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2008, 01:21   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Fremantle Australia
Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction
Posts: 558
Send a message via Skype™ to Whimsical
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
We are gearing up production this European summer June July so cost will start to come down and with the batteries and gen set you can balance your boat in any way you want
A motor,wiring harnass, prop,controllerand control handle, anode and fuse boxes
will come down to Euro 12400,00 this is without the hydraulic actuator or pump
but there are many ways in lifting the unit not so costly.
We have completed the test in our basin of 3000 hours and are now fitting the first set to a monohull in the Netherlands and a dual set to a Fastcat 455 in South Africa

Greetings
Is this for 1 motor?
2 x 12,400 plus generator.
The variable speed gensets are bloody expensive as well and I don't like the idea of one large genny. Two small ones would be much more preferable.
So what is a realistic total with a single gen
$40,000 euro
Or twin smaller gens 60,000 euro

2 x diesels 13,000 euro
Got to draw a line somewhere.

What is the wieght of twin motors and twin small generators.
I leave out the batts as these perform double duty as the house bank and with LIFE cells not a huge wieght.

Mike
__________________
Whimsical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2008, 02:21   #27
Marine Service Provider
 
fastcat435's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Amstelveen Netherlands
Boat: FastCat 445 Green Motion
Posts: 1,649
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to fastcat435
Yes it is 2 x 12400 = 24800 plus 17000 for a single 144 volts 11 Kw generator that also delivers 3 kw 24 volts = 41800,00 total this includes all needed it is more expensive and you still have to make a hinge system and lifting device that can be made for as little as 1000 euro with a winch already in the boat
The weight of these motors is 36.4 kilo each complete with props anode and wiring.
they can regenerate 3 Kw per hour each at 10 knots of speed and you can decrease your resistance with 5 to 7 % when lifted from the water.
My guestimate is that you will spend 12000 euro more in going the electric route with one generator or 20000 more with dual DC generators.
The small 6 Kw generators weight 135 kilo each and the 11 kw weights 220 kilo
When is the time you would need the motors?
Greetings
__________________
fastcat435 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2008, 02:51   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Fremantle Australia
Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction
Posts: 558
Send a message via Skype™ to Whimsical
Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
Yes it is 2 x 12400 = 24800 plus 17000 for a single 144 volts 11 Kw generator that also delivers 3 kw 24 volts = 41800,00 total this includes all needed it is more expensive and you still have to make a hinge system and lifting device that can be made for as little as 1000 euro with a winch already in the boat
The weight of these motors is 36.4 kilo each complete with props anode and wiring.
they can regenerate 3 Kw per hour each at 10 knots of speed and you can decrease your resistance with 5 to 7 % when lifted from the water.
My guestimate is that you will spend 12000 euro more in going the electric route with one generator or 20000 more with dual DC generators.
The small 6 Kw generators weight 135 kilo each and the 11 kw weights 220 kilo
When is the time you would need the motors?
Greetings
24,800 + 17,000 for 11Kw Thats about 29,000 more. Wieght about 293Kg, about 40Kg more - not bad
I would definitely prefer 2 smaller gens
24,800 + 2x 14,000, guessing, total 53,000 or 40,000 more. Wieght 343Kg, about 90kg more, still manageable as it is under the original spec'd allocation for propulsion.
So we have either 3x or 4x the price. 12,000 more I could possibly justify it to myself maybe if I downed a few brews, but I don't drink, the 20,000 could be possible but 30 or 40 more is way beyond my comfort zone.
The pair of diesels is 13,000 total or 6,500 each including local GST.

I probably don't need the motors for another 12 months but I was prompted to resolve this issue now as there is a great deal going on Nannies at the moment and this is also an incentive for good prices from the Lombardini rep. I must sort this in the next 3 days.

Mike,
the environmental terrorist
__________________
Whimsical is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2008, 03:47   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 340
motor location.

From memory some of the Jensen cats had their motors accessed from the stern steps. Probably worth talking to an experienced owner. Have heard a Funny?? Serious ?? story of said owner trying to fix engine fault in the middle of the Joseph Blown Apart Gulf en route to Darwin in less than calm conditions, very difficult trying to keep the water out from all accounts.
__________________
cat skin hat
catty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-03-2008, 09:17   #30
Senior Cruiser
 
schoonerdog's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2004
Location: annapolis
Boat: st francis 44 mk II catamaran
Posts: 1,174
Images: 4
I'm going to start a big disagreement here, but were I to have the option I would think about retractable yamaha 9.9 outboards off of inner cockpit and save myself 1000 lbs of weight. It would be a similar setup to the PDQ 36, isolated engines, isolated fuel tanks, much lighter weight, can hoist and replace on any island with mail service. Actually with the PDQ, you simply use your mainsheet to hoist up the engine straight up, my wife can do it. Any maintanence you need to do is on an engine that's hanging in mid air, couldn't be easier. The engine is easily retractible and you have no metal in the water when fully up. No prop fouling, easily to repair broken prop, etc. A good yamaha enduro two stroke is almost as reliable as a diesel, very fuel efficient and is about $2700 to replace. I'd do that as a short term solution and in five years I'd use the money I saved from the diesels to make an easy upgrade to a retractible electrical engine ala african cats. The outboard engine wells would serve for easy conversion to retractible electric drives. Look at pictures of a PDQ 36 and see their setup and it will be clear what to do. You can see the outside of the engine well with this picture http://www.2hulls.com/usedcatamaran-...36_Cockpit.jpg. It makes economic sense as well, in 5 years the price for the low weight batteries will fall by half, the price for solar panels will fall 4 fold, and the price of gas and diesel will double.
__________________

__________________
schoonerdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine Bay Makeover - Rewiring - Including Engine Removal! blahman Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 52 02-12-2009 10:01
Australian Designed Cats Helm Position ireaney Multihull Sailboats 11 01-04-2008 06:26
Blue Sea Systems 4-Position Battery Switch Triton318 Classifieds Archive 2 15-01-2008 05:44
GPS Chart Plotter Different Position than Computer Jon D Navigation 9 12-09-2005 11:43
Available - CREW Position Pisces Crew Archives 0 09-03-2003 22:09



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 21:06.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.