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Old 12-07-2008, 09:13   #1
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Empty weight "BS"

Empty Weight I remember reading somewhere that the words "empty weight", in defining a boats weight, is a fictitious number used by boat salesmen to make a catamaran appear lighter than it is so they can sell them.

Perfect example is right out of the FastCat 435 manual which lists the boats unloaded mass (empty weight) at 6000 kg, then in the same manual, when running required tests on the same boat it lists the "minimum operating weight" at 7785 kg.

I don't doubt any of the numbers, but I do question the word gamemanship used in defining a boats weight. Just tell me what the boat displacement is sitting at the dock ready to sail, and stop all the twisting of facts and wordmanship, so you can say, "my boats lighter than your boat...nananana"

Sure one of the keys to a good catamaran performance is light weight, but light weight alone is no guarantee it will be a better boat or good performing boat. Going to great expense to save a few pounds in construction by using exotic materials or construction methods is often better spent by adding a few more feet to the waterline, if improved performance is what you are really trying to achieve. It is often cheaper and safer way to improve performance too.

How do we know making a catamaran waterline longer makes for a better cat? Nearly every manufacturer that has ever built a cat ends up taking the first cat they build and stretching hull and the waterline, then calling it a new and improved model....including FastCat. It is normally a cheaper and better way to improve performance.
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Old 12-07-2008, 10:28   #2
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Question

There has been and continues to be a lot of discussion on weight. In the end, not much comes of it other than to say, "buyer beware". From a more constructive practical perspective, what should a potential buyer look for when searching for a fast Cat. I agree that longer is better, but longer is also more expensive. So let's say, for example, that you have set your sites on a Cat which is 46-48' long. What then do you look for to know that one cat will have a smaller displacement than another. I don't trust any of the numbers from the manufacturers....some are probably true, others are not, so they all must be taken with skepticism.
Also, I'm concerned that if a Cat is made too light, it may not be structurally sound over time. A long passage pounding into the wind may ultimately reveal issues. Take these world record breaking Cats/Tris that have self destructed at sea....perfect example of pushing the envelope on weight and performance.
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Old 12-07-2008, 12:44   #3
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Well, if the custom and practice in the industry is to publish empty weight numbers, then I guess a new manufacturer would be foolish not to do so. In any case, the number should at least be accurate. I agree that it is not meaningful. More meaningful is so called sail-away or ready-to-sail weight. But this is subject to all kinds of interpretations; there is no industry standard definition; and while it is closer to real world weight, it is probably inherently no more meaningful than empty weight. In the end almost no published numbers have much to do with actual fully-provisioned-and-equipped-for-cruising weight.

Maybe Rolls Royce had it right - For years the advertised horsepower of their engines was stated as "adequate."
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Old 12-07-2008, 13:44   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ldrhawke View Post
Empty Weight I remember reading somewhere that the words "empty weight", in defining a boats weight, is a fictitious number used by boat salesmen to make a catamaran appear lighter than it is so they can sell them.

Perfect example is right out of the FastCat 435 manual which lists the boats unloaded mass (empty weight) at 6000 kg, then in the same manual, when running required tests on the same boat it lists the "minimum operating weight" at 7785 kg.

I don't doubt any of the numbers, but I do question the word gamemanship used in defining a boats weight. Just tell me what the boat displacement is sitting at the dock ready to sail, and stop all the twisting of facts and wordmanship, so you can say, "my boats lighter than your boat...nananana"

Sure one of the keys to a good catamaran performance is light weight, but light weight alone is no guarantee it will be a better boat or good performing boat. Going to great expense to save a few pounds in construction by using exotic materials or construction methods is often better spent by adding a few more feet to the waterline, if improved performance is what you are really trying to achieve. It is often cheaper and safer way to improve performance too.

How do we know making a catamaran waterline longer makes for a better cat? Nearly every manufacturer that has ever built a cat ends up taking the first cat they build and stretching hull and the waterline, then calling it a new and improved model....including FastCat. It is normally a cheaper and better way to improve performance.
What most yacht manufacturers are trying to do is improve , this is called evolution .
The FastCat 455 is not an entirely new boat , it is a longer higher and lighter version of the 435 build in a diffrent material , basalt fiber to increase strenght and decrease weight
The reason that in the owners manual you will still find the minimal operating weight is that each time you contact any Ce certification bureau to change any info the cost is high so we rather do that once in 2 years since our cats are changing whenever we can find a improvement and that is often.
Once The FastCat 455 Green Motion is launched and the actual weight is recorded we will have the CE certificate and the manual changed to the new correct weights , presently 5800 kilo for a fully equipped version including rib outboard etc.
In this 5800 kilo there is no water , diesel and personal goods or people included , normally for a crew of 4 plus personal goods and water and diesel we ad 1000 kilo to a total of 6800 and this is called light displacement

Greetings
Gideon
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Old 12-07-2008, 14:20   #5
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Fastcat, and any other builders,

Where is the weight in these cats? If you look at a breakdown by percentage, what contributes significantly to the weight....

For example,

65% - hull
15% - diesels
5% - anchor chain
5% - running rig
5% - Wood interior
...
...
x% - etc.
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Old 12-07-2008, 14:26   #6
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Just ask the complete CE certification report , it states the actual empty weight , max loaded weight, and all the buoyancy abours including enclosed bulkheads but including watertight compartments etc
Gideon
Gideon,

I know nothing of the CE certification....how strict are they in terms of verifying the data they receive from boat builders...Or do they rely on independent third party verification of some kind. What does it really mean to be CE certified....should we care?
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Old 12-07-2008, 14:50   #7
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I think you should care , these examinations are done very exact, it rasies the resale value , it creates a significant larger market to resell your boat since non |CE certified boats cannot be sold into Europe
laminates , weight, strenghts and all other safety retaled items are checked like the thickness of windows etc
Yes do care because it is another way to make sure you own a safe boat.


Greetings
Gideon

p.s. in Our case they where present when we infused the first hull and decvk and regularly a surveyor showed up to check how the boat was put together
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Old 12-07-2008, 14:55   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limpet View Post
Fastcat, and any other builders,

Where is the weight in these cats? If you look at a breakdown by percentage, what contributes significantly to the weight....

For example,

65% - hull
15% - diesels
5% - anchor chain
5% - running rig
5% - Wood interior
...
...
x% - etc.
I am at home at the moment and do not have the weights of the separate items with me
but I will share the total weight and how it is made up and these are all weighted and checked items
each and every part added to the Fastcat is weighted , put onto a spread sheet so we can compare with future build cats and see continuesly how we can reduce weight while maintaining or even increasing strenght

greetings

gideon
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Old 12-07-2008, 18:10   #9
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Ldrhawke: I have discovered your motivation! You are secretly in the employ of African Cats! Your endless sniping has made everyone else side with Gideon, who shines like a stoic martyr by comparison!

But it won't work, I cannot now, never could, and assuredly never will be able to afford a FastCat!
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Old 13-07-2008, 02:20   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy daugherty View Post
Ldrhawke: I have discovered your motivation! You are secretly in the employ of African Cats! Your endless sniping has made everyone else side with Gideon, who shines like a stoic martyr by comparison!

But it won't work, I cannot now, never could, and assuredly never will be able to afford a FastCat!
Sniping normally comes from jalousy I do not know the reason but I am comfortable with being attacked by others and do not really care. It is normal if one thinks out of the box that many others with peanut sized brains cannot comprehend the advances made for in this case better catamarans. If we followed the peanut sized brains our cata-marans
would still be 2 wooden logs tied together with rope and a small sail made from palm leaves.
Although you cannot afford to purchase a FastCat you are always welcome to sail with us.
We are trying to get a Green Motion ersion ready in time for the Miami Boat show and if we do and you are around, come and sail.

Greetings
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Old 13-07-2008, 05:57   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy daugherty View Post
Ldrhawke: I have discovered your motivation! You are secretly in the employ of African Cats! Your endless sniping has made everyone else side with Gideon, who shines like a stoic martyr by comparison!

But it won't work, I cannot now, never could, and assuredly never will be able to afford a FastCat!
Well some of us are free thinkers ,so taking sides doesn't come into it,
unless you are a sheep maybe.

It will be interesting to see if the moderators pick up on gideon referring to some fellow posters as "having peanut sized brains".
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