Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

[I.Grind]

Thanks for the great info Mike, i have enjoyed reading your blog. All the naysayers claim that regen slows the boat by an unacceptable margin. In the video embedded in the above referenced blog post you were doing 6 kts and generating a small amount of power. Have you tried (it would be a great video hint hint) adjusting the motor so that the display read zero (neither generating or consuming power) and measuring boat speed then backing off the power to start regenerating power and measuring how that affects boat speed? I am very curious as to how much difference it really makes especially as one begins to surpass hull speed. My assumption is that the faster you are going, the less it will slow you down, and the rate of generation will increase.

Something else I have been wondering, can you control the amount of regeneration (and resulting drag) with the throttle?

Thanks

Andrew

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by mbianka

THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: END OF THE SEASON THOUGHTS OF AN ELECTRIC SAILOR: 2011

I've been through your Blog already and plan to do so again in the future!

[ArmyChief]

I've read his blog 3 times...specifically on propulsion. Thanks Mike

[mbianka]

Originally Posted by I.Grind

Thanks for the great info Mike, i have enjoyed reading your blog. All the naysayers claim that regen slows the boat by an unacceptable margin. In the video embedded in the above referenced blog post you were doing 6 kts and generating a small amount of power. Have you tried (it would be a great video hint hint) adjusting the motor so that the display read zero (neither generating or consuming power) and measuring boat speed then backing off the power to start regenerating power and measuring how that affects boat speed? I am very curious as to how much difference it really makes especially as one begins to surpass hull speed. My assumption is that the faster you are going, the less it will slow you down, and the rate of generation will increase.

Something else I have been wondering, can you control the amount of regeneration (and resulting drag) with the throttle?

Thanks

Andrew

Andrew:

I just discovered the regen working quite by accident late in the season so I did not experiment with it too much. Most of the time I'm just enjoying the sail. I had just been "electro sailing" that is just turning the prop enough to negate the prop drag when I noticed the regen working once the boat was sailing about 6 knots. I'll play with it more this season. I had noticed that when I start off motoring under sail the current draw drops as the wind picks up and the sails start to power the boat more. So I expect regen to increase as well the faster the boat goes. I'm also using the same three bladed prop I used when I had my diesel so a new prop might even improve it more. Though the size is limited a change in pitch or number of blades might help. But, I am happy now and there are a few things like AIS, lifelines and some new anchor chain I'd like to get before I get around to messing with the prop. Plus I'm "it ain't broke don't fix it sailor". Another thing I'm curious to see if when running under sail if I get a little regen as the waves pass under the boat and the boat surfs forward a bit. Kind of tapping into the energy of the wave. We'll see.

[mbianka]

Originally Posted by ArmyChief

I've read his blog 3 times...specifically on propulsion. Thanks Mike

I've read his blog 3 times...specifically on propulsion. Thanks Mike

Thanks David and Army Chief! Hope it helps others who might want to make the switch and whats involved.

[Rhapsody-NS27]

Originally Posted by ArmyChief

I've read his blog 3 times...specifically on propulsion. Thanks Mike

Same here. I haven't found any other blogs with as much first hand experience and details.

[niel12]

Thanks Capt Mike, i realy read and re-read your blog and will so again and again in future as i now see i made serious errors, in truth, one's never to old to learn!

[MacG]

The electric motor is going to work as a dynamo as soon as it reaches a certain revs/min level. And indeed, it is quite practical to reduce drag by letting the motor power slowly. One of the very advantages of an electric propulsion.
In this particular situation I believe that you have a three bladed prop?

[JRM]

Originally Posted by Hyprdrv

JRM,
Steve here. I have not "reworked it as the original installs were horrible extensively". In fact most of the original components have worked flawlessly for the last 3 years of my owning Electra Glide. I've updated several systems such as monitoring and balancing the Propulsion bank but other than that system has worked very well.
Do NOT confuse the first 3 410 cats that had the Solomons System installed with the 420 systems installed by Lagoon. They are 2 different systems operating on the same principles. Lagoon decided they didn't need Solomons so went off on their own. I operate on a 144V system were they operated on a 72V system. All 3 410's are still running strong and Hull 2 of the EP 410 systems was just sold after being on the market for 1 week. There is nothing wrong with the Solomons system. It's 9 years old and going strong.
As for the 420's Ive talked to several owners and the general consensus was Lagoon sold them a system on a very expensive boat that they hadn't done their homework on. Most of the early systems should never have been sold to people who didn't fully understand the operation of an EP boat let alone put it into a charter environment which gets abused. Then add the problems up front that owners were experiencing, add a dash of panic on an expensive boat, and you get the results you seen.
Don't throw out the idea do to improper application, poor understanding of the system, and a get out of the EP system card.
I'm planing on solar panels for the house bank this year (remove the load from the Propulsion Bank) and if all goes well I'll go to LiPo batteries on the Propulsion bank in maybe 2 more years.
If anything, I was pissed off I couldn't get any wiring diagrams from Lagoon so have created my own. Other than that, Regen is minimum in the Bay. Not enough to charge the Prop Bank. The 15KW genset handles any emergencies but then I try and not get in a situation I can't sail out of. Worked so far.

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE

Thanks Steve, and my apologies for misstating the facts. I knew yours was different from the current one, I just assumed you had changed it. Thank you for correcting that.

Good luck with the solar. I just priced out adding solar to my traction bank and transitioning house load onto it, but it's more than I want to invest right now.

I wouldn't trade my electric boat for anything, except maybe a bigger electric boat :-). Pretty much every boat we look I try and figure out if I can justify the conversion.

JRM

[deckofficer]

I would like to create a place for everyone thinking about electric, and diesel-electric propulsion, fully electric galley, electric dinghy, diesel DC gen-sets, and 48 VDC (and higher) inverters, can communicate ideas, links, experiences, and pictures. Since I have been the victim of thread closures when such topics veer off, I have added this topic to my own forum. When your on your own turf, you know posting history will not be lost. My forum is a rather oddball mix of subjects, 80% hot rods (T-buckets) 10% for family care givers, and 10% sailing/cruising. This is where you will find the topic "Integration of systems" in the "Hybrid Drives For Sailboats" thread that is part of the "SAILBOAT CRUISER'S FORUM". All are welcome, please give links to all the breaking news on hybrid drives that you have come across here....
Integration of systems

[4134me]

Hi Everyone

Sorry to bring up an old thread but there seem to be some very knowledgeable folks watching it.

I am in the process of planning a 48' aluminium sailing cat which will be used for blue water cruising and also game fishing here in nz( sometimes under sail)

I very much like the idea of hybrid propulsion for a number of reasons. mainly for the ability to instantly engage full reverse upon gamefish strikes. trolling under sail for long periods would mean cold diesels and likely engine damage ( sails will be designed for quick dousing)

also the ability to run a full electric galley is very appealing. I understand the need to have fuel on board but would like to make this only diesel if possible.

to have a central 'engine room' for generator/s would be of benefit in both weight distribution and also allow for careful sound insulation.

my plan is to run the usual catamaran setup of 2x motors but also 2x generators, both for safety and flexibility. sized to allow economical motoring at a comfortable speed in good conditions running one generator, and higher speed or for difficult conditions while running both.

battery capacity does not need to be huge, just enough for fighting a gamefish or motoring out of port. Any longer periods of motoring can be generator assisted. at least one genny would be set up for autostart.

What I would like to ask some of you experts relates to running the electric motors directly off the generators. I believe a DC system is the way to go? For any extended periods of motoring it would be good to avoid the losses and limitations involved in going through the batteries is this possible with a dc system?

Any help would be greatly appciated, constructive criticism likewise. Yes I do realise straight diesels will be more efficient if run in the right powerband, but I can live with a slightly higher fuel bill for the upsides of electric drives.

Thanks in advance!

[mbianka]

Originally Posted by 4134me

Hi Everyone

Sorry to bring up an old thread but there seem to be some very knowledgeable folks watching it.

I am in the process of planning a 48' aluminium sailing cat which will be used for blue water cruising and also game fishing here in nz( sometimes under sail)

I very much like the idea of hybrid propulsion for a number of reasons. mainly for the ability to instantly engage full reverse upon gamefish strikes. trolling under sail for long periods would mean cold diesels and likely engine damage ( sails will be designed for quick dousing)

also the ability to run a full electric galley is very appealing. I understand the need to have fuel on board but would like to make this only diesel if possible.

to have a central 'engine room' for generator/s would be of benefit in both weight distribution and also allow for careful sound insulation.

my plan is to run the usual catamaran setup of 2x motors but also 2x generators, both for safety and flexibility. sized to allow economical motoring at a comfortable speed in good conditions running one generator, and higher speed or for difficult conditions while running both.

battery capacity does not need to be huge, just enough for fighting a gamefish or motoring out of port. Any longer periods of motoring can be generator assisted. at least one genny would be set up for autostart.

What I would like to ask some of you experts relates to running the electric motors directly off the generators. I believe a DC system is the way to go? For any extended periods of motoring it would be good to avoid the losses and limitations involved in going through the batteries is this possible with a dc system?

Any help would be greatly appciated, constructive criticism likewise. Yes I do realise straight diesels will be more efficient if run in the right powerband, but I can live with a slightly higher fuel bill for the upsides of electric drives.

Thanks in advance!

Sounds like a plan. When I converted to EP five years ago my backup was to install a marine diesel if using the Honda 2000i generator I originally used did not work out for my needs. It has so I never went the diesel generator route. But, on your boat it makes sense. Nice thing about only having generators you can install them on board where maintaining them is easy unlike the limitations of diesel engines driving a prop at least on smaller boats.
Not sure why you think going through the batteries is a limitation. It is more like a buffer or bucket. With your generators (or solar, wind etc...) refilling the bucket as needed as you draw down the amps. They also allow you to operate in a number of ways. You don't always need to run the generators to power the boat. For example on a recent wind less day while cruising I operated under battery alone for two hours before I fired up the Honda generator and even then the batteries had only dropped to 77% of capacity. I'm conservative in my battery use. I then operated in hybrid mode from about 9 am until sometime after 3 pm. Then the gas ran out in the Honda (1 gal capacity) in the middle of Hell Gate. Since I really needed to be at the helm in the turbulent waters I again operated under battery alone until I could get to calmer waters to refill the generator. In your case trolling along under sail and/or battery could be a real advantage because it is so quiet the fish may not even hear you coming.
I've got a 48 volt dc Thoosa 9000 system on my boat that works great for me. Lately talk is of using AC motors that are a little more efficient at the expense of more complexity in controlling them. AC systems were just coming out five years ago when I converted. I went with the DC system because if the electronics should fail I could just jumper the batteries to the motor and move the boat. But, I've never had to do that and find Electric Propulsion to be much more reliable and cheaper to maintain than my old diesel.

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, 4134me.

[deckofficer]

There is a lot to be said about stored electrons vs fossil fuel. The advantage being your able to produce your own stored electrons for later energy needs but fossil fuel you are dependent on refineries.

Now I know this wouldn't be everyone's cup of tea, but it is able to knock out 90 nm daily runs on just 4.75 hours of daily sun exposure with the 6 kw solar array. It also has the very light Steyr 75 hp diesels, should you want faster passage times. It has a fully electric galley with induction stove top. On the hook you have all the power you need for A/C, cooking, hot water, electric dinghy, etc., without ever running an engine.



You would be surprised how much energy you can store in these cells vs lead acid.

[4134me]

Thanks guys

Mbianka, I was always under the impression that running through batteries with yet another change in energy form was less efficient than running the motors directly from a generator? and that finding a charger able to make use of all the available current was difficult? If this is not the case then DC could be the way to go!