Electrical Propulsion vs Diesel Propulsion

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by JRM

I haven't read to the end, so I apologize if his has been answered already. There's a guy named Steve on the Yahoo electric boats list who loves his Lagoon. He's reworked it as the original installs were horrible. Also, most of the people who convert back (both of the articles I read :-) were sold a bill of goods on regen. Regen really doesn't work practically. Maybe enough for house, but not practical for traction bank.

It's a bit disingenuous to claim that all hybrid electric is bad because one early commercial attempt failed. Not all cars are failures because [redacted] burns through ignition coils. It's a bad design.

JRM

Although am aware that the Lagoon Electric power had problems - have not really followed events.

Without rehashing a squllion posts on the subject .....was the problem centred around the boat being sold as self powering (regen from prop / solar / wind) - without a generator....or simply that the technology installed wasn't as good as it should (and could?) have been? (for the use that Owners actually made of the boat).

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by smj

This sounds great but have you factored Inthe drag of the two large diameter props while sailing? I would estimate maybe a 2+ knot loss of speed for this which means you would probably have to motor a lot more. For your future boat, a PDQ 36 wouldn't the Torqueedo motors with there ability to tilt free of the water while sailing make more sense?

If I roll my own, or use the Tourqeedo 4.0, both would tilt up for sailing unless I need some regen for the batteries.

[mikereed100]

Several years ago when I was rebuilding my 46' cat I was commited to EP. However, after a couple of years of research, including correspondence with those who had tried EP with similar boats, I realized that in order to get enough juice for a large, long distance cruiser the cost would have been over 3-4x that of diesels. I reluctantly gave it up and installed a couple of small Nannis which have worked out very well.

That said, I am looking forward to the day the Atomic 4 in my 30' coastal cruiser goes TU so I can istall an EP system.

The bold print represents my take on electric propulsion as it stands today. For the way I sail it is ideal for a coast cruiser/daysailor but far too expensive for a large, long distance cruiser.

[Hyprdrv]

JRM,
Steve here. I have not "reworked it as the original installs were horrible extensively". In fact most of the original components have worked flawlessly for the last 3 years of my owning Electra Glide. I've updated several systems such as monitoring and balancing the Propulsion bank but other than that system has worked very well.
Do NOT confuse the first 3 410 cats that had the Solomons System installed with the 420 systems installed by Lagoon. They are 2 different systems operating on the same principles. Lagoon decided they didn't need Solomons so went off on their own. I operate on a 144V system were they operated on a 72V system. All 3 410's are still running strong and Hull 2 of the EP 410 systems was just sold after being on the market for 1 week. There is nothing wrong with the Solomons system. It's 9 years old and going strong.
As for the 420's Ive talked to several owners and the general consensus was Lagoon sold them a system on a very expensive boat that they hadn't done their homework on. Most of the early systems should never have been sold to people who didn't fully understand the operation of an EP boat let alone put it into a charter environment which gets abused. Then add the problems up front that owners were experiencing, add a dash of panic on an expensive boat, and you get the results you seen.
Don't throw out the idea do to improper application, poor understanding of the system, and a get out of the EP system card.
I'm planing on solar panels for the house bank this year (remove the load from the Propulsion Bank) and if all goes well I'll go to LiPo batteries on the Propulsion bank in maybe 2 more years.
If anything, I was pissed off I couldn't get any wiring diagrams from Lagoon so have created my own. Other than that, Regen is minimum in the Bay. Not enough to charge the Prop Bank. The 15KW genset handles any emergencies but then I try and not get in a situation I can't sail out of. Worked so far.

Steve in Solomons MD
Lagoon 410 SE

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

If I roll my own, or use the Tourqeedo 4.0, both would tilt up for sailing unless I need some regen for the batteries.

AFAIK, the Torueedos are not set up to do regen. In fact I believe that having them lowered while sailing was offered as a possible reason for some of the failures on "School's Out".

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

AFAIK, the Torueedos are not set up to do regen. In fact I believe that having them lowered while sailing was offered as a possible reason for some of the failures on "School's Out".

Oh I know, and as much as I would hate to void the warranty on such an overpriced outboard, it would be easy to configure the controller to allow regen. I will more than likely roll my own, just use a lower drive from a gasser outboard and replace the power head with a electric motor. About 1/3 the price but not as efficient as the purpose designed Torqeedo.

[44'cruisingcat]

A while back I saw an old Seagull outboard. It had a very long leg and a BIG prop. Might be a candidate for conversion, if you could find a pair?

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

A while back I saw an old Seagull outboard. It had a very long leg and a BIG prop. Might be a candidate for conversion, if you could find a pair?

Due to the prop shaft, if I roll my own, I'm stuck using conventional high speed props if I direct couple the motor, and if I gear it for lower prop rpm, I would not be able to find a prop with that deep of pitch. A typical lower unit has around a 2 to 1 gearing, so if your engine/motor tops out at 6000 rpm, your prop would spin at 3000. The largest pitch prop I can find for the Yamaha 9.9 is a 12, so 12 X 3000 X 60 / 12 / 5280 = 34 / 1.15 = 29.6 kt at zero slip, so this would work for the dink, The smallest is an 8 for the non-high thrust. (The high thrust uses lower gearing so 9 1/4 would be the smallest for it) 8 X 3000 X 60 / 12 / 5280 / 1.15 = 19.7 kt.

The high thrust Yammy has a deep 2.92 to 1, and at my operating voltage my motor will spin at 4800 rpm / 2.92 = 1643 prop rpm or 10.8 kt with the 8" pitch prop. See how easy that is.

[LauderBoy]

Originally Posted by smj

Disadvantages of electric drive without a diesel generator.
You run out of battery power with no wind and the current is pushing you onto a reef, land etc.

Even without a generator backup, can the person not look at their state of charge and just, you know, think ahead and anchor when appropriate so they don't go slamming into the reef? I sure hope this guy never runs low on diesel fuel otherwise he might forget to look at the fuel gauge and run out of fuel in front of a tanker!

What does that diesel guy do when he's off that reef and the impeller breaks, the water intake plugs up, or the heavy wave action kicks up some scum and clogs his fuel line?

Or that NZ story of "you better have a good engine". Electric engines are fantastic when it comes to wear and tear. Replace 1 part every 10k hours or so. And for the price of what it'd normally take to have professional diesel maintenance done on an ICE you can just replace your Honda 2000 generator every 2-3 years. One of those will keep you going 3-4 knots on those calm days for as long as you can shove fuel into the thing. And if it breaks down you still have an engine with reserves in the battery bank and the ability to recharge it(solar, wind, prop regen).

It's certainly not for some boats or the 5 by 5 crowd(not going at least 5 knots for 5 minutes = start the engine), but it's a viable technology.

[tsmwebb]

Originally Posted by LauderBoy

Even without a generator backup, can the person not look at their state of charge and just, you know, think ahead...

Sure they can. But, all of the state of charge indicators I've ever used on battery systems have been wildly unreliable compared to a fuel level indicators. So, boaters could be getting into serious trouble believing them. In practice SOC is a hard problem and all the systems I've used need to be reset regularly and still have occasional glitches.

Tom.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by deckofficer

Due to the prop shaft, if I roll my own, I'm stuck using conventional high speed props if I direct couple the motor, and if I gear it for lower prop rpm, I would not be able to find a prop with that deep of pitch. A typical lower unit has around a 2 to 1 gearing, so if your engine/motor tops out at 6000 rpm, your prop would spin at 3000. The largest pitch prop I can find for the Yamaha 9.9 is a 12, so 12 X 3000 X 60 / 12 / 5280 = 34 / 1.15 = 29.6 kt at zero slip, so this would work for the dink, The smallest is an 8 for the non-high thrust. (The high thrust uses lower gearing so 9 1/4 would be the smallest for it) 8 X 3000 X 60 / 12 / 5280 / 1.15 = 19.7 kt.

The high thrust Yammy has a deep 2.92 to 1, and at my operating voltage my motor will spin at 4800 rpm / 2.92 = 1643 prop rpm or 10.8 kt with the 8" pitch prop. See how easy that is.

How about belt drive onto the shaft? Then you can fiddle with gearing to your heart's content.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

How about belt drive onto the shaft? Then you can fiddle with gearing to your heart's content.

Belts require considerable and adjustable tension which introduces a whole new spectrum of problems with bearing loads especially on systems that were not designed for heavy transverse bearing loads. . .

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Hyprdrv

As for the 420's Ive talked to several owners and the general consensus was Lagoon sold them a system on a very expensive boat that they hadn't done their homework on.

Most of the early systems should never have been sold to people who didn't fully understand the operation of an EP boat let alone put it into a charter environment which gets abused.

Then add the problems up front that owners were experiencing, add a dash of panic on an expensive boat, and you get the results you seen.

Don't throw out the idea do to improper application, poor understanding of the system, and a get out of the EP system card.

That's interesting feedback . I guess a classic case of the dream (and the marketing?) bumping into reality.

[mbianka]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

That's interesting feedback . I guess a classic case of the dream (and the marketing?) bumping into reality.

David:

Yep, Personally, I thought long and hard before I made the leap to EP in 2008. I thought about the limitations and the "what ifs" a lot. Happily, I now know I made the right decision and my sailing experience is much more pleasurable too. I'm still learning ways to use the system to make it even better. It took me until the fourth season to see how regen worked on my boat:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: END OF THE SEASON THOUGHTS OF AN ELECTRIC SAILOR: 2011
Now that I know it does I'll be looking to use it more often when conditions permit. I'm still finding ways to use my EP system to help in sailing and avoid unpleasent situations. One time I was sailing into New York harbor from Sandy Hook in near gale (36 knot) conditions with wind against current. As I approched the Verrazano Bridge I realized I was not going to be able to get under it without tacking into some nasty conditions. I then thought hmmm let me add a little EP into the mix and see what happens. I was able to point up enough and still be under sail avoiding having to tack. Plus it was quiet so I could still listen to the sounds of the boat in those rough conditions. In case something was about to give. It's hard to describe how well the system works for me to those who have not experienced it. My first season of course I was very cautious as I got to know how to use it and see what it could do. Also used the Honda generator more than I really needed too that first season. Each season I find I can depend on my EP system more and more when I really need it and find more ways to use it to enhance the sailing experience without the noise and vibration of a diesel. I know and understand it's limitations and find it's easy to make sure I never bump into them.

[deckofficer]

Originally Posted by mbianka

David:

Yep, Personally, I thought long and hard before I made the leap to EP in 2008. I thought about the limitations and the "what ifs" a lot. Happily, I now know I made the right decision and my sailing experience is much more pleasurable too. I'm still learning ways to use the system to make it even better. It took me until the fourth season to see how regen worked on my boat:
THE BIANKA LOG BLOG: END OF THE SEASON THOUGHTS OF AN ELECTRIC SAILOR: 2011
Now that I know it does I'll be looking to use it more often when conditions permit. I'm still finding ways to use my EP system to help in sailing and avoid unpleasent situations. One time I was sailing into New York harbor from Sandy Hook in near gale (36 knot) conditions with wind against current. As I approched the Verrazano Bridge I realized I was not going to be able to get under it without tacking into some nasty conditions. I then thought hmmm let me add a little EP into the mix and see what happens. I was able to point up enough and still be under sail avoiding having to tack. Plus it was quiet so I could still listen to the sounds of the boat in those rough conditions. In case something was about to give. It's hard to describe how well the system works for me to those who have not experienced it. My first season of course I was very cautious as I got to know how to use it and see what it could do. Also used the Honda generator more than I really needed too that first season. Each season I find I can depend on my EP system more and more when I really need it and find more ways to use it to enhance the sailing experience without the noise and vibration of a diesel. I know and understand it's limitations and find it's easy to make sure I never bump into them.

Mike's story will be repeated time in and time out as more folks make the switch to EP. You heard it here first from Capt Mike.