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Old 19-07-2014, 12:32   #406
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Let us run some rough estimates at cost:

3kw of PV = $3000
3x 48v 50a mppt = $900
6kwh of LiFePo4 = $4000
2x mars etek 0907 motors = $750
2x brushless motor controllers = $600
high current copper wiring and connectors (normally can be salvaged for free) = $200
Not that I disagree with your over all point that electric would have an over all long term lower cost. Mostly in that diesel fuel, diesel engine repairs and maintain are not cheap.

But as someone that has completed a convertion some of your number are high and some low. I keep up with my cost to the penny. Now most of these numbers are general boat restore numbers and would have been needed with either a diesel or electric convertion.
Cost break down.

As space is limited on a boat you need high efficiencies panels for a 3kw array it will run around $7000 for 20% effecient panels.
The solar charger numbers are right on.
The lithium numbers look high to me I got a 48kw pack for $10000
The motor numbers will depend largely on the power you want so they look fine for the power you want.

But the comment on the cabling is way off. I have over $1000+ in marine grade 4/0 and 2/0 cable that was needed for the electric convertion. The absolute last place you would want to try and save money on the convertion is in cables. Nothing would roast you controllers and destroy you investment faster then undersized and out of speck cables and connectors. They are not cheap but they are the very life's blood of the install.

Electric motors don't need to be winterized and have MTBF 10 times higher then the best diesels. The two biggest reasons that I expect my electric setup will pay for itself is fuel and maintance cost savings. Even having a diesel worked on onces will set you back thousands. I could replace a motor on my setup for $900 by removing four bolts. And could have it rewound for a few hundred bucks. The controler would be similar trouble and cost. And both are 10 times less likely to fail in the first place. Plus I am quaddudent I would have to loose four motors or controllers befor I was dead in the water.

I also priced Styler diesels for my boat and the electric setup was the cheaper of the two options. But I still need to buy a new generator so the over all convertion cost may wind up being similar.
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Old 19-07-2014, 12:47   #407
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun
Let us run some rough estimates at cost:

3kw of PV = $3000
3x 48v 50a mppt = $900
6kwh of LiFePo4 = $4000
2x mars etek 0907 motors = $750
2x brushless motor controllers = $600
high current copper wiring and connectors (normally can be salvaged for free) = $200
Quote:
Originally Posted by yamez4u View Post
Not that I disagree with your over all point that electric would have an over all long term lower cost. Mostly in that diesel fuel, diesel engine repairs and maintain are not cheap.

But as someone that has completed a convertion some of your number are high and some low. I keep up with my cost to the penny. Now most of these numbers are general boat restore numbers and would have been needed with either a diesel or electric convertion.
Cost break down.

As space is limited on a boat you need high efficiencies panels for a 3kw array it will run around $7000 for 20% effecient panels.
The solar charger numbers are right on.
The lithium numbers look high to me I got a 48kw pack for $10000
The motor numbers will depend largely on the power you want so they look fine for the power you want.

But the comment on the cabling is way off. I have over $1000+ in marine grade 4/0 and 2/0 cable that was needed for the electric convertion. The absolute last place you would want to try and save money on the convertion is in cables. Nothing would roast you controllers and destroy you investment faster then undersized and out of speck cables and connectors. They are not cheap but they are the very life's blood of the install.

Electric motors don't need to be winterized and have MTBF 10 times higher then the best diesels. The two biggest reasons that I expect my electric setup will pay for itself is fuel and maintance cost savings. Even having a diesel worked on onces will set you back thousands. I could replace a motor on my setup for $900 by removing four bolts. And could have it rewound for a few hundred bucks. The controler would be similar trouble and cost. And both are 10 times less likely to fail in the first place. Plus I am quaddudent I would have to loose four motors or controllers befor I was dead in the water.

I also priced Styler diesels for my boat and the electric setup was the cheaper of the two options. But I still need to buy a new generator so the over all convertion cost may wind up being similar.
Why would you attribute a quote to me than I didn't make?
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Old 19-07-2014, 12:55   #408
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

It seems LiFePO4 are getting cheaper. Your price is significantly less than a few years ago from what I remember.

I think you are right that higher-efficiency solar panels are probably worth the extra cost, but some may choose panels less than the most efficient available. Do yours absorb light from both sides for reflections off the water?

For the wiring, the cost really depends on lengths, and perhaps you are running higher power levels. I am assuming 100 amps continuous. In any case, my previous system simply used wire I got for free which was used to power a house which was 2 gauge. For crimps, you can make your own and if attached correctly the results are the same.

Do you have any figures for round-trip efficiency of the battery?

The link to the costs break down.. the numbers don't line up with the items so further down the list you can't tell what costs what.
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Old 20-07-2014, 19:42   #409
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

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I agree with so much you say...so don't take this wrong: But the above quote is simply way off base. If a parallel hybrid runs out of gas it is NOT becalmed...not any more than a serial system. A parallel system CAN be powered by the electric motors alone at typical no-wake speeds by using the energy that is stored in the batteries. It won't cruise as fast as a serial hybrid because the E-motors are smaller; but not becalmed either. Solar and hydro-generation (while sailing) fill the batteries back up and that stored energy CAN be used for propulsion. Same as serial. I don't argue against serial hybrid systems; parallel and serial both have advantages and disadvantages. Parallel just happens to be my final choice after researching both. It fits MY needs best. With the type of sailing you'll be doing and your strong belief systems, I think you're making the best choice for you with the serial hybrid. For many people, an all diesel system is the best choice for them.

Ok, I thought perhaps you would be relying on charging the batteries via the diesels with alternator, so if you have enough solar & hydrogeneration as well, then you certainly are into serious redundancy. Which for bluewater boats is great!
So I made enquiries here in Australia to learn more about the Yanmar hybrid you are describing, and there is no information about it from Yanmar at all here. They have never heard of it, let alone support it.
Who is the contact to learn more?
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Old 20-07-2014, 20:07   #410
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

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Ok, I thought perhaps you would be relying on charging the batteries via the diesels with alternator, so if you have enough solar & hydrogeneration as well, then you certainly are into serious redundancy. Which for bluewater boats is great!
So I made enquiries here in Australia to learn more about the Yanmar hybrid you are describing, and there is no information about it from Yanmar at all here. They have never heard of it, let alone support it.
Who is the contact to learn more?
Quick web search turned this up:
http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/resou...d+brochure.pdf

Presumably what's being discussed.
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Old 20-07-2014, 20:11   #411
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

Thanks Turone. I thought of them but for some reason I thought this had been developed in the US. Probably got my wires crossed, wouldn't be the first time.
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Old 21-07-2014, 07:56   #412
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

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Originally Posted by Turnone View Post
Quick web search turned this up:
http://www.hybrid-marine.co.uk/resou...d+brochure.pdf

Presumably what's being discussed.
Correct: That particular brochure shows the saildrive version but shaft drive is also available. Graeme Hawksley is the contact there (the previously mentioned genius). It's my understanding that his office is just a few doors down from the owner of Isara Catamarans, so they have worked closely together on fitting it to the Isara 45.
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Old 21-07-2014, 10:48   #413
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

Just a quick note about the Yanmar Hybrid. I contacted Hybrid Marine recently and was told by Graeme that they do not offer a saildrive version - they only built a prototype.

I'm currently looking into OceanVolt (http://www.oceanvolt.com), which looks like a promising serial hybrid solution.

Also, Nanni offers a diesel parallel hybrid engine that looks very promising.

Both of the above can be provided as sail drives.



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Old 21-07-2014, 14:02   #414
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

Maybe I have not posted enough to be seen yet, but has anyone looked at the drives offered by Elco? I know their motors and controllers are good, and they've been doing electric boats for nigh on a hundred years.

I've been dreaming about a boat with this system. If someone can tell me why I should discount Elco.... I would appreciate hearing about it.

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Old 21-07-2014, 14:25   #415
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

I think one has to be concerned about going with 'proprietary' solutions.
Unless it becomes commonplace where there are so many out there it is worth 'reverse engineering' them, you are stuck with highly inflated parts and service.

This is usually required for new technology. But honestly there is nothing new about this technology. If someone had something particularly innovate and valuable, it might justify it.

Adding an electric motor to a diesel engine is nothing innovative.
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Old 02-05-2015, 18:31   #416
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

It is with much hesitation that I enter this discussion, but feel that I may have some personal experiences to share. I have been a hybrid sailing cat now for 5 years with Torqeedo motors, Lithium batteries and Diesal DC Genset. Sure has been a steep learning curve for some-one without much electrial experience. Of course over there have been failures and frustrations with the system, but would repeat and improve if I was to build another boat. All three of the components have had their issues but have had outstanding backup with 2 out of 3 suppliers.
The advantages far outweigh the use of traditional systems as I have had on my last 2 boats, and am still experimenting with new and different products to improve the boating lifestyle.
This boat was purpose built for an electric propulsion sysem , so have some advantages over some-one trying to convert from fossel to alternate power.
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Old 02-05-2015, 19:46   #417
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Re: Electric Propulsion on Catamarans

This depends on the size of your boat, the capacity of the
battery bank and how fast you want to go. For example to
take a 35 vessel requiring approximately 2kW to achieve
4.5kts. With 4 x 100Ah batteries we would have about 3.8kW
of usable energy storage. We could thus travel constantly for
about 2 hours at 4.5kts. Increase the size of the battery bank
and you can go faster or further!

Using this statement how was 3.8kW fiqured to be the usable energy storage?
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