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Old 20-04-2006, 11:39   #31
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Just found the Asanagi photos. You are pioneering my friend! Must be a great adventure. Is there a thread for discussion of your boat?
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Old 20-04-2006, 11:46   #32
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Randy:

The battery configuration is two banks of 6 (12 volt) batteries. The Lagoon diagram is a bit misleading only showing one bank of 6. Each 6 are connected in series and the two banks are connected in parallel. If one of the batteries in one bank dies, one of the banks can be isolated from the other manually to provide half the power to run the engines.

I received your PM about the document. Please provide an email and I will send it to you. I don't know how to send a document through the pm and email features of this site.
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Old 20-04-2006, 12:12   #33
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Laser: Just sent you a new PM. Nice to know that there are two banks on the drive side.

Anyone ever seen a Lagoon rep chime in on technical issues? I notice that other firms have lurkers who will help out or defend the turf from time to time.
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Old 20-04-2006, 18:10   #34
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Randy

Sorry, no thread.

This is something I started back in 2000. The contract with Alwoplast to build was signed in April 2004.

I have a site used to communicate with the Alwoplast and the other vendors and also to provide info for friends. It has progress photos and some other stuff - but no additional info about the diesel/electric.

You are welcome to take a look - but no additional info related to this topic.

http://www.gosstyla.com/ASANAGI/main.html

By the way. This is the very much compromised version - the only one I thought possible to get implemented in my life time.
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Old 21-04-2006, 21:39   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser
The 420 main drive batteries are 72 volts. The genset puts out either 110V or 220V to the charger inverter that then puts out 72 volts 120A to charge the batteries. With this in mind, wouldn't you need a 72 volt solar panel system or wind generator. Is there such a thing or are they all 12V with the option to hook them up in parallel to generate more amps? The house batteries are 12V so you could charge them with solar/wind. Maybe the 72V issue is why Lagoon has not considered solar or wind options.
The 72 V issue is only a technical detail at best. You could charge the 72 V battery bank from the 12 V bank (or a 12 V wind/solar system) with off-the-shelf components: just use an inverter in place of the generator. For a more efficient system, use a 12 V to 72 V DC-DC converter. This device uses the same basic technology in an inverter, but the output is regulated DC.

(In some boats that use the Solomon's drive, there is only a 144 V battery bank on board. House power is provided by a 144 V to 12 V DC-DC converter.)

In principle, you could use 6 of 12 V solar panels in series to get 72 volts, but then you would need a 72 volt regulator. There is no reason you couldn't do that, though I haven't seen 72 V regulators available from marine suppliers. You might find them off the shelf from somebody who sells solar for houses.

The difficulty in adding a solar/wind system is really just a matter of working out the technical details. If it isn't obvious how to do it, the problem is just that you don't have the background in designing electrical systems. (With all the different voltages etc, it may be more practical to just hire somebody to design a system for you than to try to learn enough to design it yourself. Whoever you hire should be able to explain clearly how to use and maintain it.)

I think Lagoon just doesn't think it is worth their while to design a solar/wind system for the boat. It's a lot of expense for them to design and support the systems. I expect they just don't expect they could sell that option on enough boats to be worth doing.
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Old 26-04-2006, 11:00   #36
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Privilege also has an electric version. The CatamaranCo currently has the boat, it is a 395 with the Solomon electic motors. I believe it is 120 volt DC system, but I am only 75% sure of my memory in that regard. I believe they will fit a number of there boats with this option.

I did a sail on the 410s Lagoon at the boat show in Annapolis year before last. I was impressed. It's low speed response was outstanding! Docking was a charm. I wasn't able to detect much drag when sailing, but CRUISING Catamarans have not overly impressed me with there pure sailing ability. The most amazing thing is they were absolutely quiet!!!! I couldn't tell the things were on!!!

I think there are two issues of paramount consideration. Cost and servicability. They are expensive!!! And you do have to have a genset! At least according to the founder of Solomon. He said that with the Genset, the price differential goes down. The issue of servicability relates to being in remote places and having stuff break. Getting parts is going to be FAR more of a pain than it already is.


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(Note: I do own Solomon stock)
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Old 27-04-2006, 19:14   #37
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An interesting discussion of the Lagoon and Leopard systems posted on the Catamarans.com website: http://www.catamarans.com/news/2006/...elelectric.asp

By Malcolm Turner, Multihull Review, March/April 2006 Now comes the news that The Mooring are venturing up a similar path but using a rather different system to Lagoon. A Leopard 43, apparently christened the “eLeopard”, has been launched and is presently heading for Miami . Plans called for it to appear at the Miami Boat Show, but latest reports say that it has been held up by bad weather.
Under its conventional configuration the Leopard 43 is fitted with twin 30hp Yanmar saildrives. These have been replaced in the “e” version with two 35hp electric motors and one 25kW generator. The power output from this is 33hp (747 watts equals one hp).
Despite this reduction in power output there has been no loss in speed. Tests before the boat left South Africa showed it reaching a top speed of 8.2 knots under power. The twin Yanmar version has a top speed of 7.5 knots.
The reason for this is that a lot of energy produced by a conventional diesel engine is wasted. Fischer Panda, who have done a lot of work in this area, estimate that a rate of 2kW/1 ton is the correct ratio to work upon for diesel electric propulsion.
Given that the displacement of a conventional Leopard 43 is around 8.5 tons this would give a requirement for an electrical output of some 17kW. This leaves plenty of spare capacity in the 25kW generator to charge the batteries and power any ancillary domestic equipment.
So what is different about the two versions of diesel electric propulsion? Well, Lagoon who have been experimenting in this area for a number of years have chosen to go down the path that is often described as an “hybrid-electric system”
In this system the prime motive power comes from two banks of six 12 volt batteries which will drive two 72 volt dc electric motors. On leaving harbour fully charged the batteries will drive the engines for around two hours after which they will have lost some 20% of capacity. The 11Kv Onan 220Volts generator (13.5Kv for the 110volts US version) will then kick in.
In order to reduce costs and ensure reliability, Lagoon has gone to Leroy Somer, the French arm of the large US Emerson group for its propulsion system.

“These engines are based on industrial units made in their thousands by this company with a proven track record of running 24 hours a day, seven days a week. In effect they are also maintenance free and only require a simple bearing change every 20,000 hours,” says Lagoon chief executive Yann Masselick.
“We have gone down this path because we wanted a regeneration system. This is particularly important on long voyages. On trials across the Atlantic prototype boats have hardly used any fuel at all as the batteries are charged by free wheeling props when the boat is sailing.
“This method has been proven by us with the development of seven prototypes, of which six have crossed the Atlantic . In all cases fuel consumption was minimal despite running radios, autopilots, lights, refrigerators and freezers. It is a very good ecological system for charging batteries.
“Price is also very important which is why we have gone to a major industrial company such as Leroy Somer. The previous 410 cost €250,000 while the new 42 will cost €270,000. I think that this is extremely reasonable when you consider that the new boat has a rigid bimini and a generator, as well as being bigger.
“The hulls are slightly broader which will mean a small reduction in top speeds but this is unlikely to affect passage times – a Lagoon 57 has just won the ARC multihull division in real time against some stiff competition.
“We have had more than 50 orders to date from private owners and no one has requested a twin diesel version, which would indicate that people like what we are doing.
“The first boats will be launched in June with owners taking delivery in July. A number will be going to the US as well as to Europe ,” he said
The new “e” Leopard, which The Moorings very much regard as a test project, takes a rather different approach. They have joined forces with Glacier Bay Inc., a US company who's OSSA powerlite products are used extensively in the marine industry.
This latter company has supplied both the twin 35hp dc electric motors and the 25kW generator which powers them. This is also used to run the two 20,000 btu/hr “Micro Air” air conditioning units from the same supplier.
A conventional domestic battery bank provides power for the usual 12 volt items such as autopilot, instruments, light, radio and refrigeration as will as supplying 115 volt power via an inverter.
Glacier Bay also claims that fuel consumption is significantly reduced though use of its system.
On the question of cost, the “frequently asked questions” section of its website says that “The Ossa Powerlite System will probably be more expensive. In general, plan on the cost being around 150% to 200% more than it would be with conventional equipment.
“For a typical new boat build the premium paid for a complete OSSA powerlite system adds about five per cent to the cost of the boat.”
So why has diesel electric propulsion suddenly come to the fore with a number of major players – Fischer Panda and Benetau are also working in this area – now getting involved.
Well, there is nothing particularly new about it. Most major cruise liners built over the past 10 years use it because of the fuel savings they can make.
All Icebreakers are also propelled in this way because of the increased thrust they can develop which is not available from conventional diesel engines.
Recent developments now mean that these systems can now be applied to much smaller vessels than would have been the case even a few years ago. A British company which has been involved in this area for a number of years is Sillette Sonic Ltd.
While this company is best known in the multihull world for supplying the folding sail drive units for Prout Catamarans, they also supply electric propulsions systems and have a number of their drive units working in many parts of the world.
Given the inherent advantages of a diesel electric system, electrical power always on tap, reduced fuel consumption and only one engine to service, it would seem only a matter of time before the majority of new boats are powered in this way.
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Old 27-04-2006, 22:11   #38
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One more thing to add, Trains (diesel locomotives) have been using this type of system for years. They can get more low end torque out of an electrical motor then with an internal combustion engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_...iesel-electric
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Old 11-05-2006, 23:04   #39
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Electric drive

Well I'm one of the fools that went and ordered a L420. I am writing to answer all the negative press.
It puzzles me that there is so much negative commentary on the drive system. My God is everyone so unable to change? You focus on minor negative issues when there are major positives. Let me tell you as a mechanical engineer (now a practicing physician) this is a no brainer. This is electrical engineering 101. There is no new technology here. We are connecting electric motors to a generator with a battery buffer. What is the issue?
Gee, lets see?

1. Genset runs with greater efficiency.

2. Electric motors allow instant power and torque. No start or warm-up. Instant max torque. force x lever arm.

3. If genset fails you have two hours of motoring off batteries. How much better is this than you typical diesel monohull? Genset fails, motor away from the rocks under battery power. When you lose a motor on a cat you lose maneuverability. Not here!

4. Electric motor basically maint. free. One diesel to work on. Easy to access. Also, changing a generator is easy vs and inboard motor. The genset they use was voted the most reliable equipment in recent board-Cruising World ARC survey.

5. No diesel motors in the living space. No smell. Much bigger interior.

6. Much easier to sound proof. Quiet on battery or genset. How much is that worth?

7. Better to power onboard equip.

8. The system can be set to zero drag. It will turn props enough to prevent drag and recharge down waves and in puffs.

9. Far more environmentally friendly in terms or fuel eff. and poluting.

10. Diesel/electric has been used for many years on trains and ships.

11. Lagoon has been prefecting this for years. Do you think they would use it for there biggest selling size cat if there wasn't a very high probability of success?

I could go on and on. There is no disadvantage vs. two diesels unless you like maintanence or working on a hot motor in a confined space or worrying that your motor won't start in a pinch. Look how this buffers you from a disaster in the case of taking on bad fuel.

What about lighting? What if I fall of the end of the world if I sail too far?

I'll let you know what it's really like to own one. Boat won't be done until 5/07

Thank you.
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Old 11-05-2006, 23:25   #40
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Welcome, Planetoftheapes --

Heck, I agree with you. That's why I ordered one, too. Hull #75, due to be completed in 7/07. Are we taking a bit of a chance? Yeah, probably, but I figure Lagoon is betting far more than I am that it will succeed. Plus, anybody checked the price of diesel lately? If it even saves 30% over the life of the boat, given that the purchase price is close to the same as the smaller 410, then that sounds like a great deal to me.

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Old 12-05-2006, 01:35   #41
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Thumbs up Right on, Doc!

Wish I had one! Or should I say could afford one
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Old 12-05-2006, 04:11   #42
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Guys,

The diesel electric drives sound intriguing, but forgive me if I have a few questions, essentially the same ones that Laser touched on.

Exactly how many 12 volt batteries are involved with this system? 6 or 12?

If you can motor for 2 hours on batteries(12.5 miles) , is that at 20% discharge?

At that discharge level, can the batteries recycle more than 500 times? more than 1000 times?

What's the replacement costs of the 6 or 12 batteries and how often will that need to be done? 2 years? 4 years? 6 years?

After a period of time, how do you find the 'weak' batteries if they are all in series?

If we figure the cost of battery replacement as maintenence costs, doesn't that compare favorably with diesel maintenence?

A question was asked of Cat owners about using their twin engines. My much smaller catamaran (27 feet) has twin 10hp inboard Yanmar diesels. They use 1 quart of fuel per hour, per engine. Depending on wind and currents, I regularly run on 1 engine with no loss of cruising speed.

Rick in Florida
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Old 12-05-2006, 06:06   #43
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I am in a wait and see mode and congratulate you guys on making the purchase. I am sure it will turn out great in the end and I will be left waiting in line and paying more once I get over my "I have to see it first" position.

I would like to add one more positive to the above statements. It was said that if the Genset fails you can motor for 2 hours before you get to the 20% level. The 20% level is chosen to be a good point in the battery discharge cycle to recharge so that the battery lasts as long as possible. There is a manual override to allow you to continuing motoring on the battery bank until they are fully discharged. I see this as a very nice emergency backup if for some reason extra time is needed.
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Old 12-05-2006, 09:30   #44
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Rick --

The propulsion system uses 2 banks of 6 batteries in series. Each bank is 200 amps at 72 volts, for a total of 12 propulsion batteries. At this point in time (keep in mind that the first boat hasn't hit the water yet, so there's a good chance that changes will be made by the time they hit #20), Lagoon is offering wet cells as standard and gels as an option.

As I'm sure you know, the number of cycles in the battery is highly correlated with the depth of discharge. While there are many variables involved, it seems that allowing a 20% DOD and then starting the genset would be intended to keep the lifetime number of cycles on the high side. "How many" that might actually be will probably be determined more by the owner's usage and maintenance habits that anything else. All other things being equal, Concorde gives the estimate (# of cycle on the verticle axis, DOD on the horizontal) in the attached chart. That would infer that at a 20% DOD, life expectancy would be in the 2800 to 3000 cycle range.

Laser is correct. There is an override possible in the event that you should have a problem and need to motor longer without genset power. Obviously, one wouldn't want to do that unless you needed to, but it can be done. Something not mentioned, is that there is also the sailing regeneration mode. Even if the genset should fail and be unrepairable, if you can find wind (it is a sailboat, after all!), you can still recharge the batteries, that way. (How many of us can refill our diesel tanks, even with just a few gallons, while on passage?)

How much does replacing such a battery bank cost? Well, a lot! Let's see, Pacific Power has wet cell, 240 amp 4D's for $132/ea. X 12 = $1584. Add taxes, etc. and round it off at $1800. Or, at $3.25 a gallon, 550 gallons worth of diesel. At $6/gallon, that's 300 gallons worth.

Will the system work, or will it be a white elephant? We won't really have a reasonable guess for at least another year and probably two or three. I'm making the following bets, though:

1. The price of oil will continue to rise.
2. Electric motors are reliable (the only maintenance part on the motors used in the Lagoon are the shaft bearings at 20,000 hours).
3. Now that these are in their second generation, Lagoon has had enough experience and engineering expertise to design and build a reliable and workable system.
4. It is in Lagoon's (really Groupe Beneteau) interest not to put out a poor product.

There is another factor involved in my decision, too. While I certainly do not want to be foolish with my money, and I also want to use my resources to have fun, I also want to encourage companies to develop technologies that solve problems instead of creating them. Although I am just one customer, a market is a collection of individual customers. We all know that the current petroleum dependent technologies are a dead-end street that have caused us many problems. Lagoon is putting out a product here that is a step in the right direction. If I'm going to buy a yacht (which I am), then buying a yacht that goes in that right direction also helps to create that market and encourages others to do the same. While I would personally love to see a solution more in line with HaveBlue, that doesn't seem to be happening. Maybe more intermediate steps need to happen, first.

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Old 12-05-2006, 11:53   #45
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Economic optimum for depth-of-discharge

Deep-discharge lead-acid primary battery history has given rise to the 50% depth-of-discharge (DOD) econimic optimum operation point for repetitive charge/discharge cycles.

This economic optimim is based upon spending the minimum amount of dollars per charge/discharge cycle over the life of a battery bank. If a shallower DOD is chosen the battery bank is more expensive to purchase due to the larger size requirement for a given discharge design regimen. If a deeper discharge is utilized then the battery bank life is shorter and must be re-purchased more often. Non-linearities purported to exist with DOD versus lifetime cycles for lead-acid deep-discharge batteries of any type are essentially irrelevant due to the essentially linearity of the graphs in the vicinity of the 50% DOD point.

The data for all lead-acid battery types becomes very unreliable near the shallow DOD part of the graph to use for accurate prediction for a specific application and particular battery bank making the tendency to attempt to gain more lifetime cycles at a known cost increase per cycle very difficult in advance.
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