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Old 01-06-2009, 02:49   #421
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Hallo Nordic as stated we have a monohull in the water with the green motion system in place and working.
What do you call those boats fast½cats, or ½fastcats?

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I do not know what the owner of Butterfly is talking about since I am the owner of Green eMotion and I have not talked to them ,
The boat I'm talking about is the one for the Italian guy (forget his name) that is now a year delayed.


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In the basin testing we have used AGM batteries since weight is no issue on the ground.
So what you are saying is that you have NO EXPERIENCE with any of these hi-end battery systems with your electric propulsion system. Then how can you make claims as to the performance and consumption of your system??


Quote:
The Monohull has now been tested for 6 months in the Dutch waters.
So that means from November to May of this year. Lovely time to put in lots of hours on a boat in Dutch waters Nice and warm, not much wind???

Could you be a bit more specific as to the type of monhull, and performance you have documented as compared to the normal diesel drive system?

Quote:
All Fastcats 445 come in at or below 6500 kilo
As far as I know, there has only been one built and delivered, and that weighed in at over 8 tons!! Your claim was 5.6 tons "ready to sail"

Your memory is very selective Gideon.... we can find the postings to prove that your claim is incorrect (yet again).

In conclusion:

You have not got your electrical propulsion system on a boat that is sailing.

You have no experience using either the Valence or Mastervolt batteries with the electrical propulsion system.

So all your claims as to performance are in fact unsubstantiated, and are in fact of little use, other than as a tool for you to market your product.

When making claims, please ensure that you state that they are design goals and not actually proven, it makes things easier to relate to...

Alan
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Old 03-06-2009, 14:05   #422
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As usual your conclusion shows that you do not read well and are poor informed
we have got a monohull in the water with the Green Motion system installed and are testing with the system.
Mastervolt has tested the Lithium Ion battery,s for us with loads identical to our motors.
You as an engineer should know that if a 10 Kw gives one hour of range at 50 % power
25 Kw available will give 2 and a half hour of range !!!
If a monohull of 4500 kilo in the water ex crew with one 9.6 Kw motor runs at 7.5 knots we can assume that a cat with a loaded weight of 9 tons and 2 motors of 9.6 KW each will give about the same speed .
We have got experience with both Mastervolt and with Valence and both are good units.
If a customer want a Fastcat 435/445 in its bare sail away version the weight is on the 5500 kilo mark and we are still working to get that down .
My aim is 5000 kilo with 2 x 20 hp diesels installed and ready to sail.
I am not saying I will reach that but we are on the way.

Gideon
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Old 04-06-2009, 07:29   #423
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Theoretical only?

The point that Nordic Cat is making is that you (Gideon) are posting replies that very clearly suggest that all these systems that you talk about are tried and tested and the efficiency figures, fuel consumption figures, solar inputs etc etc are figures that you have found while running one of your cats in a real life situation. It seems though, from what you've said, that this isn't the case at all and that you are merely assuming that these figures will apply to the finished product because of some testing you've done on a monohull. This might be the case, but if you haven't yet actually finished a working example of the "Green Motion" system surely it would be more honest to state clearly that these are theoretical figures only, because anything else is very misleading and might cause people to question your integrity.
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Old 04-06-2009, 07:39   #424
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Not theoretical only Dedzaboy, all these systems have been tried and tested individually and I have stated no where that a FastCat with this system is in the water, for the rest I have stated that these are theoretical figures and most but not all are already tested just not together yet. Once a FastCat is in the water with all these systems on I will state the real life facts on the system and its practicality, range, speed, consumption of fuel and of electricity with detailed specs on motors used , batteries used , generators used etc. What has been tested are power consumed, efficiency of the combined motors and controllers, solar output on the panels used, generator output, and on the Monohull we have a finished working example of the Green Motion system since it was not only designed and to be used on a FastCat but also on other cats and monohulls .
With the small output of our cat factory it would not be worthwhile to go thru the effort and cost to develop a system like this .

Greetings
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Old 04-06-2009, 10:17   #425
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If a customer want a Fastcat 435/445 in its bare sail away version the weight is on the 5500 kilo mark and we are still working to get that down .
My aim is 5000 kilo with 2 x 20 hp diesels installed and ready to sail.
I am not saying I will reach that but we are on the way.

Gideon
So how do you get from 8½ tons down to 5½ tons?

It's always the same with you Gideon, you just don't seem to be able to post actual facts, instead you keep posting design goals.

Of the 4 boats built to date, and 3 of then are 435's and not 445's, not a single one has come in under 8 tons by your own admission in earlier posts.

The facts are, you have been posting on the performance of the green motion system since 2007, as though it actually exsisted and is in everyday use, and you continue to do so, this is misleading to say the least.

I hope that you do post actual performance figures for the boat with the green motion system, but please ensure that they are verified by a neutral 3rd party, preferably a surveyor.

I for one don't believe what you post, having so often found that your figures are never found to be true when we start digging.

Your claim for a 10 knot average across the Atlantic, when in actual fact it was 6.85 knots was the first big "pie in the sky", your own blog that you had removed from your website disproved your claim!! (Aren't cached pages just a bummer)

If you want to market your products, then I think the vendors forum is where one is free to do so. If you have factual data of system performance etc. then we love to read those here. But please FACTS not dreams or "vapour-ware", or helium infused hulls...

Alan
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Old 04-06-2009, 13:58   #426
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Hallo Nordic
Customers tend to ad all types of extra,s to boats , for instance the last one that was launched had well over 2000 kilo,s of extra gear ranging from a dishwasher , airconditioning , hard top bimini, bigger engines , props , anchor , chain bigger windlass raised deck for more interior living space but the bare boat was in line with the expected weight of 6500 kilo, you can read the customers blog to verify. Our cruising speed was 8.95 knots on the first prototype on the crossing from cape Town to Miami if measured in a straight line however we sailed according to the log about 10 % more miles than the straight line so the average speed was actually higher. ( about 10 % )
I do not know where you get your nonsens from but you have a poor selective memory

Gideon
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Old 04-06-2009, 13:59   #427
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By the way how is your Bi rig coming along or still a dream ship ?
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Old 04-06-2009, 14:48   #428
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Hallo Sandy a cruising speed of 7.5 knots can be maintained on the 16 KW generator and the fuel burn is 2.5 liters per hour or 5.2 pints
This gives us a powered range of about 1600 NM not counting any solar or wind generated input and not counting any generated electricity from the Motogens.

Greetings

Gideon
Gideon,

Perhaps we are having some language problems. When I read this response to a CF member's question, I get the feeling that this is the result for a Fastcat 4xx that is in the water. There are no words from you that say, "in our testing we have achieved these results..." There are no words that say, "we have tested the components individually and expect to have a fully integrated system assembled and launched on a Green Motion Fastcat 4xx, 5xx or 6xx by such and such date."

While you have previously posted an expected launch date of May or June of this year, it would seem prudent to offer a few words that say "from our testing" when responding to these questions. After all, sailors have repeatedly proven to have short memories.

I would also like to know how you square your photos of the pivoting test version of the Green Motion propellor leg with the drawings that show the leg and prop being raised/lowered vertically. How will the vertical version work given the sea life that likes to grow on exposed appendages?

Fair Winds,
Mike
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Old 04-06-2009, 16:38   #429
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Re: Green E-Motion

Hello Gideon,

Do you have any pictures and data from your test boat?? Even though its a Mono i would still like to see it and understand the specs.

Also exactly when do you think you will actually get a FastCat in the water with the Green Motion System? Do you have a FastCat under construction with Green Motion? could you please post some pictures.

thanks

Steve C.
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Old 06-06-2009, 12:11   #430
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Hallo Steve

expected launch of a FastCat is around the end of July but depends on when our electronic digital controllers are delivered, this is what we are waiting for.
Test Results of the Monohull will be published once the tests are finished end of August
I have attached some pictures of the monohull installation of the Green Motion system.

Greetings

Gideon
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Old 06-06-2009, 16:15   #431
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Interesting pictures, have you considered a flange mounted above the drive motor that would come down into the opening to close it off when the motor is down? That would have to help with turbulence pretty dramatically I would think.

I do not yet believe we will see wide spread acceptance of using regenerative power until we get a little further along the curve with Battery technology. However I do believe that diesel electric drive can be cost effective now, if a full sized (and much more efficient) propeller can be utilized to compensate for the losses from conversion. The only way that will work is to be able to remove the propeller and drive motor from the water while sailing. Your concept seems great if you can make it work properly.

I hope that you are able to overcome the problems we have heard about with quality control with the early FastCats. I am really curious to see what kind of actual results will come from such a system.

Since you are so close to launch of the Green Motion FastCat can you please take a few pictures of the boat from the outside and the engine room? I would really like to see the full mechanism mounted in the Boat.

How many generators and what size will you have?

I understand you are also working on a larger version, a 50 footer if I remenber correctly. What is the target launch date for that project?

Thanks Gideon,

Steve
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Old 06-06-2009, 19:08   #432
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I understand you are also working on a larger version, a 50 footer if I remenber correctly. What is the target launch date for that project
Steve, see The New FastCat 605 (Formerly 555)

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Old 08-06-2009, 05:29   #433
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Hallo Steve

we have a flange on top of the electric motor that closes the hole when the motor is in its down position. (See attached picture)
I think you are right that a wide spread acceptance is not around the corner, the system is more expensive than similar sized Diesel powered engines in its initial outlay.
I expect both the fuel and the maintenance cost to be lower but this payback will take considerable time.
My drive to develop a system like this is the following.
No or very limited Co2 and sooth output making the world a little bit greener.
No noise, smell or vibrations.
Less hydrodynamic drag for better speed.
In creating a system like this in order to generate electricity back when sailing we needed a large prop for the best possible efficiency but in order to sail fast , the smallest prop is still too large, that is why after many idea's the retractable motor/generator came about. The better of 2 worlds: no resistance when sailing or maximum propulsion or generation when needed.
We are now using Lithium batteries for energy storage both for the propulsion and the house side, total energy available for both is 34 KW usable 25 for propulsion and 9 for the house units. Having such a lot of energy available makes the system feasible and gives us a chance to run it without or with very limited use of Fossil fuels , the boat is fully electric so no gas on board for cooking or hot water.
We have no engine room since all we have inside is a generator of 22 KW in a sound capsule and this unit is located close to the CG under the saloon seat close to the batteries on the CG, the 2 controllers are cooled with water for a hot water heater so about 500 watt of heat for each is used as well to get hot showers and to waste as little energy as possible.
Our so called Quality problems came about from the move from our old factory to the new one and from producing one boat a year to producing 6 per year.
These problems are solved and we are on track.
In a second factory in the harbor of Durban we have started to build the plug for the new 60 ft cat that will also be equipped with the Green Motion system and will also have hinged boards working in the same way as the retractable motor system.
Expected launch date is in the beginning of 2011.
At this moment I cannot show you pictures of the retractable green motion system since all the parts are at the Anodizing Company but in 2 weeks time I will post pictures.
I have got a small movie of the system in action but this forum does not allow for movies to be shown so if you send me your e mail address I will mail it to you.

Gideon
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Old 10-06-2009, 09:36   #434
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

Need I say more.
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Old 10-06-2009, 10:21   #435
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Our so called Quality problems came about from the move from our old factory to the new one and from producing one boat a year to producing 6 per year.
These problems are solved and we are on track.

Gideon
Gideon I'm shocked!!! You now admit that you have quality problems??

But of course these are solved by upping the volume of a facility by a factor of 6 (you claim). First time i've heard or seen problems with quality solved by starting small and suddenly expanding

Alan
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