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Old 12-09-2006, 10:31   #181
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L420 Pricing

Those of you with US$ L420 orders secured can feel pleased. 2007/2008 pricing just came out and the base price is up $60k.

Steve
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Old 13-09-2006, 15:42   #182
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Check out the new lagoon 420 video on that site! And yes, I am very happy I placed my order and upgrages early! Looks like I will be saving a lot if as they say, "when my boat comes in"
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/420_pres_uk.php

Steve M.
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Old 13-09-2006, 20:16   #183
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Interested Bystander

Fascinated by the topic, engineering advances & possibilities.
I crewed on an electric powered monohull being delivered.

I won't go into the specifics (protect the innocent ) but it was an interesting voyage as it related to the electric motor, genset & batteries.
I'm no electric wizard.........just flip switches & hope for the best.

There were definitely things that needed to be "fine tuned" with the system. When we sailed, the prop often generated "too much" energy/amps for the battery bank that the electric motor had to be used to "burn off" the excess...........humm.

If we used the motor for any distance, the genset had to be turned on to prevent running the batteries down...........so we had the same diesel banging beast as any other boat.

We hit high winds & wave action one day in an area that prevented sailing (don't ask) and the electric motor (or maybe the prop) was not strong enough to push the boat thru the "conditions" forcing us to anchor & wait till calmer conditions in the am.

It was great to have full torque at the very short throw of a joy stick to move the boat with just the slightest humm...............yet the "management" of the whole system consumed the most attention of the skipper during the voyage. Hopefully all those "bugs" have been worked out for you new 420 owners yet it sounds like some potential bumps may still be lingering.
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Old 14-09-2006, 04:37   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuteman
There were definitely things that needed to be "fine tuned" with the system. When we sailed, the prop often generated "too much" energy/amps for the battery bank that the electric motor had to be used to "burn off" the excess...........humm.
Lagoon claim to have solved this one. The propellors are allowed to freewheel once batteries are topped up or speed is excessive. This essentially means the load is taken off the motors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuteman
If we used the motor for any distance, the genset had to be turned on to prevent running the batteries down...........so we had the same diesel banging beast as any other boat.
This will be true for any hybrid. I understand Lagoon have made some efforts to quieten the genset as much as possible. Because the genset isn't directly coupled to a shaft that goes through the hull, there is considerable scope for minimising noise. With quiet motors, there is a greater incentive to make other elements quiet. This one we'll have to wait and see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuteman
We hit high winds & wave action one day in an area that prevented sailing (don't ask) and the electric motor (or maybe the prop) was not strong enough to push the boat thru the "conditions" forcing us to anchor & wait till calmer conditions in the am.
This is where you have to protect the innocent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuteman
It was great to have full torque at the very short throw of a joy stick to move the boat with just the slightest humm...............yet the "management" of the whole system consumed the most attention of the skipper during the voyage. Hopefully all those "bugs" have been worked out for you new 420 owners yet it sounds like some potential bumps may still be lingering.
No doubt there will be some chinks to work out. Lagoon have a pretty good reputation to protect so I'm pretty sure they haven't gone into this lightly.

Steve
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Old 14-09-2006, 07:35   #185
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Chuteman,

How big was the monohull sailboat? Do you know what the power rating for the electric motors were? Or better yet, the brand?

Being an interested bystander myself, my opinion so far is that D/E is not there just yet for displacement monohulls. They arent powerful enough. They seem perfect for cats.

I did read about the Nordhavn that was powered by a Siemens system (dual prop) and my take on the literature was that it "worked" but was a bit underpowered.

Obviously, single compact powerful motors need to happen before they can be practical on recreational single screw displacement boats. Doesnt look like they are there yet.

Solomon say their 74hp motors (which are actual two 37hp motors coupled together) can drive a monohull up to 50 feet. My guess is that may be pushing it. Doubt it is enough for a cruising boat. And even then it would have to be a "modern construction" hull (light cored resin infused) to get decent performance.
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Old 14-09-2006, 11:26   #186
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More Deepthroat

ESS105
Freewheeling Props - Sure the systems are getting more sophisticated (maybe they should talk with Toyota)...........so they can use a clutch-like device or electrical release of props

Genset Noise - easier (distance from cockpit) on a Cat than < 45' monohull....plus more technical advances...the genset noise was not as bad as some engines but vibration/exhaust was the same.....it's really great when only the electric motor is running.........very cool humm.

Rough Conditions - yes, still need to protect "not so innocent" (not me). It was very surprising because your engine should provide a level of security that can power you out of difficult situations...............and this situation was not that bad at all ..............unique not bad........whatever. Relates to motor size/selection........

Lagoon should be able to make it work given their resources .......sure it will be a big leap..................watched the video......I'm now under the spell.

LC - Now you have 60 Minutes questions..........trying to trap me. But here goes.
Boat Size >36' < 45'
Motor = Solomon ST 37...had to get info via envelope in wet dinghy tied with secret knot

The motor was small / compact ......kinda cute.
The boat was "light" but my attorney tells me I've already said too much
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Old 14-09-2006, 14:17   #187
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RE: Genset Noise. The Onan website gives a reading of 67 db at 1 meter with the soundshield on for both the standard and optional larger gensets. Lagoon is placing the genset in a locker under the cockpit, so that should cut a few more db from there. With good cockpit cushions providing further noise shielding, maybe a few more. Considering that a noisy office environment is around 60 and a noisy restaurant is around 70, I don't suppose that is too bad. I've certainly been on boats that were much noisier under power, especially below.

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Old 14-09-2006, 16:27   #188
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That sail sounds interesting, I hope to know more about electric sailing this time next year! By then perhaps the bugs will be for the most part eliminated? Wonder how close to prevailing wind speed the L420 will do on sail and full electric power together? I'm hoping to not have the generator installed at all and use lithium Ion batteries and solar power instead. Save a couple thousand pounds and free power as well, might as well use it. You know they have new solar panels that put out &#189; power even on cloudy days now? Steve M
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Old 14-09-2006, 16:34   #189
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The "how close to wind" question is interesting for regenerating boats. What interests me is what angle can you get to wind if you alternate between sailing + regeneration then using stored power to gain upwind miles by motorsailing directly upwind until you're down to 80% charge, say. It's a bit of extra work for the crew but you may get some interesting answers.

I'm down at the Annapolis show this year and hope to get some better data on recharge times and then figure this out.

Steve
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Old 14-09-2006, 18:37   #190
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I think that there may be several sailing techniques that will be developed or changed as the electric boats get out there in numbers. ess105, aren't you getting one of the first 420's? I'll be interested in hearing what you think.

Although they were very rough calcs based on Lagoon's rather skimpy data (before #1 launched, but based on their prototypes), I figured that one hour of sailing at 6 knots was roughly equivalent to putting a half gallon of fuel back into the tank for use on the genset. With steady wind, even if on a close haul, being able to run the motors, perhaps getting another knot or two, for several hours and then let the batteries recharge before the genset cuts in, might actually result in getting another 20 to 30 nm per day on a passage, essentially for 'free'.

I also like the idea of having the auxiliaries available instantly. Talk about stopping the boat or crash-tacking!

From dealing with a production boat company, though, I have learned that they are more than willing to include things from their options list (at prices that induce the gag reflex), but are not at all willing to leave things off, or make changes to the standard equipment that aren't on the options list. So, Steve M, good luck getting that genset off! Plus, the whole boat is engineered around having it present. We are all hoping for better batteries. I'm hoping someone around here will spring the bucks for one of the FastCats with the Valence batteries. (Won't be me, though. Too much money.)

ID
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Old 14-09-2006, 19:01   #191
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Hi ID,

When I put my deposit down less than 20 hulls had been sold and I was supposed to be getting one of them. I kept pushing to know my hull number and was eventually told I was number 42. I complained and was offered number 5 - the one that's going to the Annapolis boat show. To pick this one up I would have been forced to rush into options that I hadn't got full answers on so I declined thinking (like others on this discussion) that a later number may not be so bad.

One of the numbers kicking around is the actual speed advantage you can get if you engage the motors slightly while sailing. Apparently the vessel will then regenerate on the downside of swells/waves and propel on the way up. They claim an additional .5 to .75 of a knot for no actual energy consumption. The upper range adds 18nm per day which is pretty close to your calcs.

I am with you on the benefit of having instant power available on demand. It will certainly be hard to avoid helping ourselves around a failed tack (not that we ever mess these up ).

With respect to options, here is my approach. My wife and my longer term goal is to travel the world once we have disposed of the kids. We decided a while back to do this by boat and subsequently decided this would be a cat and finally fell for the L420. To make this affordable and to give us some contol over when and where we get hold of a second hand boat, we decided to buy new and put into charter for a few years. We're kitting our Lagoon 420 out sufficient for decent charter in the BVIs. When we move aboard first thing we'll do is sail to St Martin and refit for cruising there doing much of the work myself. I hope that way to have a better choice over the extras.

In the meantime we will travel down to the Islands from time to time to have a play and live a little of the dream before our time.

Steve
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Old 15-09-2006, 09:57   #192
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Yes, Iím worried that they will not wonít to hold the generator back. However not having one and using solar instead is the only true definition of a green boat! Iím planning to have written coverage and cameras all over it (even underwater) through internet satellite hookup of a circumnavigation as soon as I get the boat. Donít think anyone has done that yet with a rig like this?
Have you looked at the new 3000 watt solar panels? http://dbksolar.com/JIL-3000.htm 6 of these babyís gives you 18,000 watts and you are cruising free with no wind! So hopefully wonít need the generator. All but they are expensive (price per watt is good though). Lifeline Advanced AGM batteries are much cheaper than the Ions but not as light, however they are still better than regular batteries and will take a 50% discharge with no damage. http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/marinecomps.php the great thing about the Ionís is they can be taken down to almost 0% and they weigh 75% less than even AGMís. (African Catís expect Ion prices to come down 20% in the next year) With regular lead acid batteries being able to only take a safe 20% discharge, going to 50% (AGMís) or to 0 (Ionís) is a huge advantage, means either same run time and less batteries (weight) or much more run time. Less weight could translate to better performance? Steve M
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Old 15-09-2006, 10:51   #193
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[quote=ess105]Steve,
..... To make this affordable and to give us some contol over when and where we get hold of a second hand boat, we decided to buy new and put into charter for a few years. We're kitting our Lagoon 420 out sufficient for decent charter in the BVIs.

I am curious to hear how the charter works out. From what I heard, the revenue on '3 cabin' owner models is not impressive to say the least...
Supposedly, a few months a year you actually have positive cash flow, but those are also the month you like to use the boat yourself.
How many weeks of charter is projected / year?
P
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Old 15-09-2006, 11:05   #194
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Charter company set expectations on 24 weeks a year. I'm modelling 20 spread across the 4 separate rate periods.

Remind me in 18 months and I'll share actuals.
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Old 15-09-2006, 11:11   #195
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charter

sounds good.
I think you will be doing especially well in the first months. Many prospect Lagoon 42 buyers will want to try it out before committing. But once there are more in charter, people will spread out I guess.
Keep us posted.
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