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Old 08-09-2006, 10:54   #166
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Leopard 36 SA/D = 30

Its amusing to try some opposite sales speak:

- Increased underwing clearance increases windage!
- New spade rudder makes rudder more vulnerable!
- Reduced cross beam height makes cockpit less secure!
- Integrated hard top puts more weight up high and you cannot pack it away!
- Plumb bow increases pitching movement!
- Increased sail area reduces stability!
etc

But i guess we are not the target market......
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Old 08-09-2006, 16:50   #167
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Its interesting that brochure literature on most new cats have similar words.I think most of it is from design ideas and concepts. It would be too expensive to build prototypes, test, change design, test, change design again, test again etc etc., like they do on cars.Catamarans that have too many new features and are dramatically different from earlier models may have new problems that no one would know, only to experience issues after having spent the monies!!
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Old 08-09-2006, 20:18   #168
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Obesity

Lagoon says,

The 420 is no heavier than her rivals. The weight calculation is strictly adherent to the new EU standard as opposed to the other manufacturers misleading displacements.

The 420 is bulit using resin infusion producing a light-weight ship. The numbers look bad on a relative basis but in reality are not.

She is supposed to be faster than the L410 which is a good sailing boat.

Good luck all!
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Old 08-09-2006, 21:31   #169
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Pics

http://www.ancasta.co.uk/lagoon/lagoon_420_pictures.asp

Here are some great 420 pictures!

-Apes
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Old 09-09-2006, 04:31   #170
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Obesity - Thanks for the clarification on weight. It was such an outlier that I really wasn't concerned as I figured it was either wrong or used a different method to measure.

PotE - great catch. I can't get enough L420 info/pics at the moment. My broker is kicking around France right now and I'm hoping he'll bring back some additional ones. If/when I get any I'll share them here.
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Old 09-09-2006, 22:34   #171
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A pound of feathers, a pound of bricks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by planetoftheapes
Lagoon says,
The 420 is no heavier than her rivals. The weight calculation is strictly adherent to the new EU standard as opposed to the other manufacturers misleading displacements.
Weight is weight....what am I missing?
What could have changed...now they require that the whole complete boat is weighed, as opposed to ,.....say just the empty shell.
What gives?

That new hull design is interesting. I wonder if it really helps with wave hull slap?
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:28   #172
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This is a good question. PotE (sorry for referring to you as Obesity earlier) - do you have a deeper explanation for what is being weighed now versus what was weighed before?

The hull design is definitely very interesting. Among other things, it delivers increased internal space at the cost of reducing the net area (and increasing the weight a certain amount). Our longer term goal is to live aboard our L420 so this becomes a plus for us.

Now that hull#1 is in the water, the next few are rolling of the line and they begin showing and demoing L420s at the various boat shows globally, we can expect to get more news / reviews over the next few months. We should get an answer to the hull slapping question in due course.
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:00   #173
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Maybe I missed this in the thread, but, does anyone know what "brand" of electric drive system the Lagoons are using? (i.e. Solomon, Siemens, etc). It is not mentioned in any of their literature and I would be surprised if it was their "own design"
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Old 10-09-2006, 12:58   #174
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SolarWind 420

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/t...ric_lagoon.htm

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/motordrive.htm

"Waypoint, (A Lagoon 410) the first electric catamaran to cross the Atlantic, hit higher speeds than the delivery captain had ever seen in a Lagoon and didn't burn a drop of fuel during the main ocean-crossing leg. Once the wind picked up off the Azores, Waypoint's onboard systems and drive motors – which ran non-stop during the entire trip – were powered entirely by electricity regenerated under sail."

This URL will take you to one of the first electrics ( Used 2- 12 HP) Solomon did for Lagoon. They continue useing 10KW engines now.

Steve
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Old 10-09-2006, 15:23   #175
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The product Lagoon 420s are being shipped with Leroy Somer motors. Their website is http://www.leroy-somer.com. I feel sorry for the guys at Solomon who made a bold attempt to kick start this market but as a future owner, I am much more comfortable with a globally established supplier.
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Old 10-09-2006, 21:49   #176
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[quote=ess105]This is a good question. PotE (sorry for referring to you as Obesity earlier) - do you have a deeper explanation for what is being weighed now versus what was weighed before?

Dear All,

Many dealers and customers have recently questioned us about the weights of
our boats that do not seem in line with the weights announced by our
competitors. Of course, the Lagoon catamarans are not heavier than the one

from our competitors. This difference in weight comes from a new EEC rule
that Lagoon follows since September 2005 in our brochures and it seems that
most of our competitors do not follow this new rule yet.


In order to help you to understand, please find here after some
explanations about the displacement figures under the EEC rule:
Today the rules are simple but somewhat confusing:
An empty weight does not mean anything anymore.


Manufacturers have the choice of giving what the EEC regulation call an
"empty displacement", a "Light displacement" or a "maximum loaded
Displacement"

(1) The Empty weight includes the following:


No equipment at all except the weight of the boat with the largest engine
option

(2) The Light displacement includes:

The whole boat including all what comes in the standard (rig, sails,
batteries, etc.) + a safety equipment (without life raft) + the heaviest

motorisation that the boat is marketed with.

(3) The maximum loaded displacement includes:

All of the above + the whole list of options (i.e. all the options printed
in the option list and that are listed without restriction (if, for

instance, the option list electrical tender lift and davits, the option
list must state that they are not compatible and the heaviest option must
be selected for the weight estimate)) + all the tanks filled up (including

grey or holding tanks) + the maximum number of crew members listed in the
lowest navigation class (so if an offshore boat has 30 people
classification in the D class, that is what must be taken in account).


On top of this, personal belongings for all crew, food, drinks, bed and toilet,
fabrics and kitchen gears must be added. It comes to a huge number, this
will never happen, but states the maximum loading capacity of the boat

according to the EEC regulations.

Since September 2005, all weights indicated in our brochures are EEC
weights.

So, for example,


For the Lagoon 380-S2, we have the 3 following figures :

- empty weight : 6,91 T
- light displacement : 7,26 T
- max displacement : 10,46 T

For the L410-S2 :
- light displacement : 7,52 T
- max displacement : 11,34 T

For the L440 :

- light displacement : 12,15 T
- max displacement : 18,05 T


In the mean time, our boats have changed a lot : the use of infusion (on
the Lagoon 420, 470, 500, 570 and above have saved about 30% of weight in

the hull and deck lamination), but in the mean time, our platform have
grown in length, width, and the volume of the hulls has increased also, in
order to offer more comfort inside. Also, designers have improved the hull

lines performance, with a better volume distribution, a better keel line,
etc.

So today, we can confirm a few facts: the average speed of the new
boats is higher than the one they replace, but the top speeds are lower. In

fact, the sail/displacement ratio has not changed, but the improvement in
the capacity of carrying the displacement makes our new boats more high
performance.

The excellent results of the Lagoon catamarans in the last transatlantic

rally ARC is the proof that the Lagoons are at least as fast as most of our
competitors, if not even faster!

Please do not hesitate to spend some time explaining those width issues
with your customers. If some customers are worried about the weight of our

boats, please tell them to make sure that they are really comparing the EEC
weight of our competitors.

The Lagoon team is at your disposal to help you on this matter, so please
do not hesitate to ask.


Best regards.

The Lagoon Team.
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Old 11-09-2006, 04:33   #177
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New 420 Pictures

Lagoon have published the pubicity pics on their website : http://www.cata-lagoon.com/420_pres_uk.php

It's pretty recent as the number of pics increased as I was looking at them.
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Old 11-09-2006, 12:12   #178
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Sorry, thanks for the clarification, I didn’t mean to indicate their motors were the ones on the new Lagoons, but they are continuing instillations on other boats. They do however have considerable marine experience with their applications. Does Leroy-Somer as well? Could not find much on their site about that. Steve
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Old 11-09-2006, 15:30   #179
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Good shot of the nacelle and fat bows, wonder if Ex Prouts folk will claim royalty for that nacelle!!! .....I must say Lagoon lines and looks take a bit of getting used to.
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Old 11-09-2006, 17:47   #180
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Lines

I was suprised. The 420 definitely has a different look. It is starting to grow on me. She's a real form follows function creation. I think Lagoon tried to optimize her function as a family cruiser.
Not much on this boat in terms artsy style. She designed to cruise. I can't wait to hear if she can really sail!

-Apes
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