Electric and Diesel comparison - Page 3

Whimsical · 13-01-2007, 16:54

Mike
I'm not realy into pc's very much and have never seen a "group". Just did a search and found an "electric boating group". Signed up so I will have a look. Thanks. Did a search for the Gato and no results. I post a link by opening two explorers, one in the thread and the other of the link then highlight, copy and paste the address. Works for me. Ive found many motors including those but not much real world data on performance, hope the groups will provide this.
Mike

ess105 · 13-01-2007, 17:55

This is probably the link you want ... ElectricBoating : Electric Boating

Is this what you found?

Whimsical · 13-01-2007, 21:57

Ess Thats the one. But it had little info for my comparison. Hopefully Mike will come up with a link for the Lavezzi 43, I did a search and zip from 15 different engines.
Mike I am tending to think that I would like about 14 kW in 6.5 T, was a bit worried the 2 3000's may be a little underpowered. Hopefully I can find enough to support or refute this. They have apparently sold two to a cat owner near Hillaries which is only half an hour from me, am trying to track him down.
There seems to be a lot of equipment out there either as a turn key or components to roll your own. The more I explore it the more I would like to go this route. The biggest difficulty seems to be finding a light weight 12 to 15 kW dc gen, apart from deciding how much power. I have sent many emails with no replys.
There seems to be a lot of orders for the lagoon but none delivered yet, sure hope they hurry up!
Mike

ess105 · 14-01-2007, 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whimsical

There seems to be a lot of orders for the lagoon but none delivered yet, sure hope they hurry up!
Mike

The Lagoons are beginning to be turned out of the factory. #4 is heading for Southampton, #5 heading for BVIs very soon and #6 is being moved from show to show in Europe. #7 due to head off to Annapolis shortly. Current production schedule looks like 5 boats every 4 weeks which I'm guessing will pick up in due course. In the next few months these boats will start appearing.

senormechanico · 14-01-2007, 11:47

There's also this one:

electricboats : Electric Boats

mikereed100 · 14-01-2007, 17:40

Mike,

Here's an attempt at a link to that article

http://www.orcasphere.org/blog/2006/5/19/a-biodiesel-electric-sailing-catamaran-for-orcas-research-and-education.html

Hope it works. The link posted by SenorMechanico is the group I have been reading. Lots of good info there. I feel your pain in reference to lack of info on electric installations in cats. There is a lot of interest the only actual installation that I am aware of is the above referenced "Gato Verde" and his is a work in progress. There are some Solomon systems out there but they are far too expensive to be relevant to my situation.

The only suitable generators I have found to date are by Fischer Panda and Ample Power. Neither are cheap but then nothing relating to boats is. The Ample Power unit comes with a regulator that integrates all charging sources and automaticly keep the batteries topped up.

Mike

Whimsical · 15-01-2007, 03:37

ElectricBoating electricboats
I have had a look at both, there is some info but both are pretty short of any hard data especially for cats. Still worth a read though especially for the links to suppliers.
Mike the link worked after cutting all the end off and just going the home page, was easy to find the article. Best bit of data to date, haven't had the chance to digest it yet.
I emailed Fischer panda about weights but no reply, seems to be almost no info on the weights of possible gens at any web site which is frustrating. The link talks about an ecycle gen, which I had already found, seems ideal as the voltage out remains constant with the throttle setting the power output rate. It uses a dc propulsion motor as the generator, which is light so total weight should be good.
Getting there slowly!!!
Mike

Whimsical · 15-01-2007, 06:05

Fantastic the first complete set of data thanks to Mike.

The Gato Verde is a 42' Fountaine cat, weight between 8.6 and 10.6 T.
Dual Yanmar 27hp (3gm30) saildrives propelled it to 7.4 knots in calm conditions @ 3400 RPM. From Yanmar engine propellor power graphs this would be about 17 Kw per engine so 34 total, nearly full throttle. The graph is a speed table for the electric install. At 7.5 kts it shows 350 Amp draw or 17 kW, half of the diesels. This figure must be the combined draw of both motors as the Lynch 200 motor is only rated to 175 amps at any voltage up to 72. L.M.C. Manufacturers of Permanent Magnet DC Motors Graph 3.

Original estimates seem to tie into the real world quite well 12 kW, 250A,in the real world gives about 6.8kts. The estimate was 7.1. Sorry can't seem to post this table, have to look at the link. 12 kW is significant for me as this is the size of the gen set I would use also.

It must be remembered that this instalation has used the sail drive leg with its gearbox. Discussions on the electric boat site claim about 1 kW lost for the box and a couple of right angle drives, which seems reasonable, so things could be improved further with electric.

A couple more good sets of data like this and I will be convinced.

My setup is becoming more feasable the more I look into it. Given my lighter weight 6.5 T power level does not seem to be an issue. The E-cycle gen would not be as heavy as a 20 hp plus sail drive and associated equipment. It doesn't even have a starter motor and battery. I was going to use 2 X 250 ah agm house batts now only one 100 ah and four 250 ah for propulsion. This equates to an extra 140 kG, about the same or less than the diesel that gets the bums rush. Another 75 -100 kg gone as I do not now need an aux gen set so I am now under weight and have oodles of gen when needed and 1100 ah house bank on the hook. It just keeps getting better.

The Glen-L site details the constuction of an electric drive utilising the lower part of an outboard. It is installed through the bottom of the hull much like a sail drive. The unit when installed is steerable. Twin engine with vectoring thrust, I'm excited.For those who are not Aussies
there was a big guy on tv here flogging cleaning products, Big Kev, and he always finishedwith an enthusiastic I'm excited.

Electric Drive - electric drive system-Boat plans, kits, inboard hardware, Boat building supplies, epoxy store Nearly full construction details online.
Mike

mikereed100 · 15-01-2007, 11:45

Mike,

That Glen L unit looks pretty slick. Could give a mono the maneuverability of a multi.

I would proceed with caution in regards to the eCycle generator. I contacted them several times but found the company very reluctant to provide information or answer emails. After a time I reasoned that if they were this hard to communicate with before I gave them money then it might be even tougher once the check was cashed, so I gave up. Gato Verde tried the eCycle generator but reports that "I have given-up on the eCycle generator as they couldn't provide a reliable unit with the output or features they claimed to be able to produce". He has since ordered the 200amp unit from Ample Power. I look forward to hearing how it performs and will let you know when I do.

Mike

hellosailor · 15-01-2007, 13:08

Mike, aren't outboard engine lower units supposed to be routinely RAISED, flushed, allowed to drain and dry in between uses? I would have expected lubrication and galvanic issues with units left in the water.

Sonny · 15-01-2007, 13:28

I think that The Moorings has just or will show a M4300 Cat at the Miami Boat Show coming up soon.

TonyWest · 11-02-2007, 10:06

Confirming that my boat, Electric Leopard, is at The Moorings dock at the Miami show. It's an Electric M4300 (or Leopard 43). Tony

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonny

I think that The Moorings has just or will show a M4300 Cat at the Miami Boat Show coming up soon.

Sonny · 15-01-2007, 13:41

Here is the link to the Lagoon 420
http://www.cata-lagoon.com/pdf/Lagoo...ochure2006.pdf

Sonny · 15-01-2007, 14:20

The Moorings 4300 CAT, is a Robertson & Caine 43 foot CAT.

Whimsical · 16-01-2007, 16:48

Hellosailor
I was to a great extent being tounge in cheek about the GlenL idea but it would be kind of neat wouldn't it. I doubt it would be used very much unless it was automated to be controlled with a joystick like the Volvo system for stink boats.
Outboard flushing. Yes they must be flushed in their original form. This would stem from the need to flush salt water from the internals that can't be adequatly protected. The GlenL only uses the very bottom piece, if there is any water inlets they are blocked up. No water enters the internal areas and with modern coatings the issue of corrosion would be less than that of a sail drive.
Thanks for the heads up on Ecycle. Where did you read that. I did see a while ago several similar units but now can't find them- bugger!
Sonny
The lagoon info is all sales hype with no real data.
Haven't had time to chase up the Robertson & Caine yet

Mike

13-01-2007, 17:55	#2
ess105 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Caribbean - cruising Boat: Lagoon 420 (Dignity) Posts: 554	This is probably the link you want ... ElectricBoating : Electric Boating Is this what you found? __________________ Dignity on the web Last edited by ess105; 13-01-2007 at 18:02.

13-01-2007, 21:57	#3
Whimsical Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fremantle Australia Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction Posts: 520	Ess Thats the one. But it had little info for my comparison. Hopefully Mike will come up with a link for the Lavezzi 43, I did a search and zip from 15 different engines. Mike I am tending to think that I would like about 14 kW in 6.5 T, was a bit worried the 2 3000's may be a little underpowered. Hopefully I can find enough to support or refute this. They have apparently sold two to a cat owner near Hillaries which is only half an hour from me, am trying to track him down. There seems to be a lot of equipment out there either as a turn key or components to roll your own. The more I explore it the more I would like to go this route. The biggest difficulty seems to be finding a light weight 12 to 15 kW dc gen, apart from deciding how much power. I have sent many emails with no replys. There seems to be a lot of orders for the lagoon but none delivered yet, sure hope they hurry up! Mike Last edited by Whimsical; 13-01-2007 at 22:02.

15-01-2007, 06:05	#8
Whimsical Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fremantle Australia Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction Posts: 520	Fantastic the first complete set of data thanks to Mike. The Gato Verde is a 42' Fountaine cat, weight between 8.6 and 10.6 T. Dual Yanmar 27hp (3gm30) saildrives propelled it to 7.4 knots in calm conditions @ 3400 RPM. From Yanmar engine propellor power graphs this would be about 17 Kw per engine so 34 total, nearly full throttle. The graph is a speed table for the electric install. At 7.5 kts it shows 350 Amp draw or 17 kW, half of the diesels. This figure must be the combined draw of both motors as the Lynch 200 motor is only rated to 175 amps at any voltage up to 72. L.M.C. Manufacturers of Permanent Magnet DC Motors Graph 3. Original estimates seem to tie into the real world quite well 12 kW, 250A,in the real world gives about 6.8kts. The estimate was 7.1. Sorry can't seem to post this table, have to look at the link. 12 kW is significant for me as this is the size of the gen set I would use also. It must be remembered that this instalation has used the sail drive leg with its gearbox. Discussions on the electric boat site claim about 1 kW lost for the box and a couple of right angle drives, which seems reasonable, so things could be improved further with electric. A couple more good sets of data like this and I will be convinced. My setup is becoming more feasable the more I look into it. Given my lighter weight 6.5 T power level does not seem to be an issue. The E-cycle gen would not be as heavy as a 20 hp plus sail drive and associated equipment. It doesn't even have a starter motor and battery. I was going to use 2 X 250 ah agm house batts now only one 100 ah and four 250 ah for propulsion. This equates to an extra 140 kG, about the same or less than the diesel that gets the bums rush. Another 75 -100 kg gone as I do not now need an aux gen set so I am now under weight and have oodles of gen when needed and 1100 ah house bank on the hook. It just keeps getting better. The Glen-L site details the constuction of an electric drive utilising the lower part of an outboard. It is installed through the bottom of the hull much like a sail drive. The unit when installed is steerable. Twin engine with vectoring thrust, I'm excited.For those who are not Aussies there was a big guy on tv here flogging cleaning products, Big Kev, and he always finishedwith an enthusiastic I'm excited. Electric Drive - electric drive system-Boat plans, kits, inboard hardware, Boat building supplies, epoxy store Nearly full construction details online. Mike Last edited by Whimsical; 15-01-2007 at 06:23.

15-01-2007, 13:28	#11
Sonny Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: CT Boat: Jeanneau SO 49 Posts: 98	I think that The Moorings has just or will show a M4300 Cat at the Miami Boat Show coming up soon. __________________ Sonny, s/y NIRVANA, SO49

15-01-2007, 13:41	#13
Sonny Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: CT Boat: Jeanneau SO 49 Posts: 98	Here is the link to the Lagoon 420 http://www.cata-lagoon.com/pdf/Lagoo...ochure2006.pdf __________________ Sonny, s/y NIRVANA, SO49

13-01-2007, 16:54	#1
Whimsical Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fremantle Australia Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction Posts: 520	Mike I'm not realy into pc's very much and have never seen a "group". Just did a search and found an "electric boating group". Signed up so I will have a look. Thanks. Did a search for the Gato and no results. I post a link by opening two explorers, one in the thread and the other of the link then highlight, copy and paste the address. Works for me. Ive found many motors including those but not much real world data on performance, hope the groups will provide this. Mike

14-01-2007, 11:47	#5
senormechanico Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Whidbey Island WA Boat: Dragonfly 1000 trimaran Posts: 1,181	There's also this one: electricboats : Electric Boats

14-01-2007, 17:40	#6
mikereed100 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Santa Barbara Boat: Catalina 30, 45' Catamaran rebuild in Thailand Posts: 436	Mike, Here's an attempt at a link to that article http://www.orcasphere.org/blog/2006/5/19/a-biodiesel-electric-sailing-catamaran-for-orcas-research-and-education.html Hope it works. The link posted by SenorMechanico is the group I have been reading. Lots of good info there. I feel your pain in reference to lack of info on electric installations in cats. There is a lot of interest the only actual installation that I am aware of is the above referenced "Gato Verde" and his is a work in progress. There are some Solomon systems out there but they are far too expensive to be relevant to my situation. The only suitable generators I have found to date are by Fischer Panda and Ample Power. Neither are cheap but then nothing relating to boats is. The Ample Power unit comes with a regulator that integrates all charging sources and automaticly keep the batteries topped up. Mike

15-01-2007, 03:37	#7
Whimsical Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fremantle Australia Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction Posts: 520	ElectricBoating electricboats I have had a look at both, there is some info but both are pretty short of any hard data especially for cats. Still worth a read though especially for the links to suppliers. Mike the link worked after cutting all the end off and just going the home page, was easy to find the article. Best bit of data to date, haven't had the chance to digest it yet. I emailed Fischer panda about weights but no reply, seems to be almost no info on the weights of possible gens at any web site which is frustrating. The link talks about an ecycle gen, which I had already found, seems ideal as the voltage out remains constant with the throttle setting the power output rate. It uses a dc propulsion motor as the generator, which is light so total weight should be good. Getting there slowly!!! Mike

15-01-2007, 11:45	#9
mikereed100 Registered User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Santa Barbara Boat: Catalina 30, 45' Catamaran rebuild in Thailand Posts: 436	Mike, That Glen L unit looks pretty slick. Could give a mono the maneuverability of a multi. I would proceed with caution in regards to the eCycle generator. I contacted them several times but found the company very reluctant to provide information or answer emails. After a time I reasoned that if they were this hard to communicate with before I gave them money then it might be even tougher once the check was cashed, so I gave up. Gato Verde tried the eCycle generator but reports that "I have given-up on the eCycle generator as they couldn't provide a reliable unit with the output or features they claimed to be able to produce". He has since ordered the 200amp unit from Ample Power. I look forward to hearing how it performs and will let you know when I do. Mike

15-01-2007, 13:08	#10
hellosailor Registered User Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,993	Mike, aren't outboard engine lower units supposed to be routinely RAISED, flushed, allowed to drain and dry in between uses? I would have expected lubrication and galvanic issues with units left in the water.

15-01-2007, 14:20	#14
Sonny Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: CT Boat: Jeanneau SO 49 Posts: 98	The Moorings 4300 CAT, is a Robertson & Caine 43 foot CAT. __________________ Sonny, s/y NIRVANA, SO49

16-01-2007, 16:48	#15
Whimsical Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Fremantle Australia Boat: Schioning 12.3 "Wilderness" Bi-Rig under construction Posts: 520	Hellosailor I was to a great extent being tounge in cheek about the GlenL idea but it would be kind of neat wouldn't it. I doubt it would be used very much unless it was automated to be controlled with a joystick like the Volvo system for stink boats. Outboard flushing. Yes they must be flushed in their original form. This would stem from the need to flush salt water from the internals that can't be adequatly protected. The GlenL only uses the very bottom piece, if there is any water inlets they are blocked up. No water enters the internal areas and with modern coatings the issue of corrosion would be less than that of a sail drive. Thanks for the heads up on Ecycle. Where did you read that. I did see a while ago several similar units but now can't find them- bugger! Sonny The lagoon info is all sales hype with no real data. Haven't had time to chase up the Robertson & Caine yet Mike

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes	Rate This Thread
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode	Rate This Thread:

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Electric Main Drive(s)	Limpet	Multihull Sailboats	507	07-10-2009 11:37
Why not electric engine powered boats	rsn48	Propellers & Drive Systems	2	04-07-2006 18:09