Visit our Popular Forums

Barra · 18-01-2018, 17:58

Well it's prettu clear to me where the drivel started. Some guys observed that the dufour was heavy. Not a surprise since as they said that was per intended use.

Then Valhalla pulls out the ol line that you wrongly hear all the time of not needing to go fast and completely missing the point of sailing performance as it applies to cruising.

Factor and I helpfully tried to explain why it's not that simple and there is a very real reason why it matters. We tried to give the benefit of our experience.

Then people get their knickers in a twist and defend their boat choices as they seem to think some are criticising them( but I don't recall that actually happening)

Then interestingly it all come back to light wind sailing performance again when fuel tankage comes up.

Pretty organic and not at all a bad thing that it evolved from a thread on a particular brand.

PaulinOz · 18-01-2018, 19:45

Quote: "Well it's pretty clear to me where the drivel started. Some guys observed that the dufour was heavy. Not a surprise since as they said that was per intended use."

So if the weight was as per intended use (your words), why would any one, especially some one like Factor and yourself, who are only trying to give to give us the benefit of your experience, feel the need to comment on the displacement in the first place?

By the way in my opinion, the following comments fall more on the side of drivel, than an intelligent observation about as vessels displacement.

"No mention of a displacement figure I see. So it isnt something they want to talk about?"

"a bit of a Porker"

"very nearly obese."

Seeing as all of this was started by the above comments on a vessels displacement, that was where I chose to enter the discussion, not to defend my preferences of sailing/cruising vessel or because I saw red and needed to leap in. To ask the question, why is it difficult to find a vessels displacement, and designed load capacity. Admittedly my ironic way of doing so appears to have fallen short. My knickers are just where they should, be not twisted at all.

Quote "Then interestingly it all come back to light wind sailing performance again when fuel tankage comes up."

The discussion was not about light wind sailing or tankage it was about a new Defour catamaran. It was taken that way by comments, trying to push the "lighter is better band wagon" once again. If that is what you want and fits your usage perfect for you.

How many lightly built, light wind capable catamarans are out there sailing beyond there designed displacement, trying to carry the owners required cruising load?

My priorities are different to start with, I want a good payload eg: around the 6,000 kg for fuel, water, sewage, equipment, provisions, people and gear. That negates me having a vessel that will sail at 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze. Not because I do not want to sail in 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze, because I could not afford that, as well as the 6 ton capacity. I set my own priorities and make my choice based on them.

Does everybody need/want that sort of load capacity, obviously not, but I do.

Do I carry on telling people that they should need that sort of designed capacity? No.

I appreciate the benefit of yourself and Factors experience, but it is just that your own experience, based on your own preferences and your own personal usage.

Myself living on the vessel 24/7/365 for the past 3 1/2 years with no home port or land base, will require a totally different set of requirements from a vessel. Compared to some one who lets say only cruses 4 months of the year and lives on Land the rest of the time. Compared to someone who sails on the weekend and the once a year cruise.

Quote: Barra "they seem to think some are criticising them( but I don't recall that actually happening)"

Maybe I am a bit thin skinned but the following appear to me to be more about criticism, than answering any discussion points I was trying to make.

Quote: Barra "you seem to have missed the point their sport (again) "

Quote: Barra "Then people get their knickers in a twist and defend their boat choices"

Quote: Barra "Yeah but yet again you didn't read beanies post or didn't understand it.why does this keep happening I wonder???"

Quote: Barra "Do you see red and feel the need to leap to your boats defence all the time"

It does not matter in the long run, all discussion is healthy and enjoyable. We each take from it what we will.

tuskie · 18-01-2018, 22:23

[QUOTE=PaulinOz;2558562]Quote: [I]
My priorities are different to start with, I want a good payload eg: around the 6,000 kg for fuel, water, sewage, equipment, provisions, people and gear. That negates me having a vessel that will sail at 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze. Not because I do not want to sail in 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze, because I could not afford that, as well as the 6 ton capacity. I set my own priorities and make my choice based on them.

Does everybody need/want that sort of load capacity, obviously not, but I do.[/eQUOTE]

Well said!

I'd also like to sail at 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze. I really would love that sort of light air performance. I know that I'd still have to motor if the wind was below 5 knots, but it would be great to sail above that. I'm also a liveaboard but my needs are simpler, no offence, but I can be satisfied with half PaulinOz' load, so 3 ton payload all up.

Obviuosly the new Dufour cat won't meet my sailing expectation, but can you suggest a brand/model of catamaran suitable for a couple to liveaboard that will?

BTW, I can't afford millions, not prepared to overload, have long ago decided that I'm not a boat builder and not interested in anything built out of Duflex. Genuine suggestions?

PaulinOz · 18-01-2018, 23:01

Quote: Tuskie "I'm also a liveaboard but my needs are simpler, no offence, but I can be satisfied with half PaulinOz' load, so 3 ton payload all up."

No offense taken, but just somewhat in my defense, part of the total load capacity is to keep my better half happy as well. As long as I succeed in that enterprise, we can keep on doing what we are doing and I will not have to return to mowing lawns.

rom · 19-01-2018, 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by DotDun

Rom stated carrying extra fuel 'should something happen', like light winds. If you don't see the dichotomy with that, and would rather burn fuel instead of sail, be my guest! I really don't care how much fuel you carry on your boat. My only point is there is a cost to carry extra fuel, especially if you have to burn fuel vs. sail just to carry the extra.

I did not say nor implied that, it is a different discussion.

Anyway I understand the "cost" concern but as others have pointed out you don't have to carry 1000l, you have the potential to do it. So yes, more options, and that is good, isn't it ? I sense a little bit of irony in the pictures Paulin posted (the jerrycans) but it does say a lot.

Maybe you also implied that having that 1000l potential, even if not using it, adds weight to the boat ? Looking at the evolution of Lagoons over the years I believe the added weight is only about comfort, and I believe the L450 would weight just the same if it had "only" 500l diesel capacity. It takes quite some space though.

There are things I don't like about the L450, or L440, a few things are commonly admitted as being wrong, but I do not see anything wrong here, just a matter of choices, I understand & respect them.

DotDun · 19-01-2018, 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by rom

I did not say nor implied that, it is a different discussion.

Sorry, I mis-intrepreted your words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rom

Now, 1040l of diesel on a L450 allows for about half a transatlantic crossing on a single engine should something go wrong (wind, sails, whatever). How cool is taht ? peace of mind !

robert sailor · 19-01-2018, 07:08

The same battle used to go on with monos as well. You could judge their light air performance by the size of their fuel tanks. Then we got motor sailors which only sailed ok in stronger winds and motored the rest of the time. They too carried huge loads compared to a performance mono so it's seems as if nothing changes, its just moved from monos to multis.

Barra · 19-01-2018, 15:22

[QUOTE=tuskie;2558616]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulinOz

Quote: [I]
My priorities are different to start with, I want a good payload eg: around the 6,000 kg for fuel, water, sewage, equipment, provisions, people and gear. That negates me having a vessel that will sail at 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze. Not because I do not want to sail in 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze, because I could not afford that, as well as the 6 ton capacity. I set my own priorities and make my choice based on them.

Does everybody need/want that sort of load capacity, obviously not, but I do.[/eQUOTE]

Well said!

I'd also like to sail at 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze. I really would love that sort of light air performance. I know that I'd still have to motor if the wind was below 5 knots, but it would be great to sail above that. I'm also a liveaboard but my needs are simpler, no offence, but I can be satisfied with half PaulinOz' load, so 3 ton payload all up.

Obviuosly the new Dufour cat won't meet my sailing expectation, but can you suggest a brand/model of catamaran suitable for a couple to liveaboard that will?

BTW, I can't afford millions, not prepared to overload, have long ago decided that I'm not a boat builder and not interested in anything built out of Duflex. Genuine suggestions?

Well I don't know if the nautitech 46 from the other post can do 4 in 7 but at 10 tonnes it's worth a look. No numbers on load though.

Agree 6 tonnes payload is extreme. 3 tonnes way more than most cruisers will need so a pretty fair max target for long term cruising

yeloya · 19-01-2018, 16:31

After spending 10 years in this forum, I still cannot understand why everybody is defying others' boat and or the way they sail.. Owning a boat yard, I've met all kind of owners; the ones who added every possible items (diving gears, triple mega anchors and 200 meters of chain, the heaviest possible dinghy and outboard, twin genset or WM, motorcycles, etc) and the ones that wanted to scrape a bit of paint for saving 30 kg. As long as the owners are happy, who cares ?
The only thing that I cannot undestand are the owners who buy a performance cat
paying an extra 80.000 € for a carbon mast, kevlar shrouds to save 300 kg, then putting everything on board and complaining that the boat doesn't perform up to their expectations..

Back to Dufour, my guesses;

-she won't sail 4 kts at 8 kts of wind,
-she will probably sail slightly better than Helia, L 450 and parity to Soana 47 or Nauthitech 46,
-she will never carry 6 tons of payload.
-if the price and the finish is OK, she will have some success in the market place, both for private and charter use. I don't think in any case that they will make more than 15 or max 20 boats a year.
-Nevertheless, not having the dealers' network and critical mass comparable to Lagoon or FP, they might have hard time to make money.

Anyway..enough said for Dufour. Now, let' see what Jeanneau will come up with..

Cheers

Yeloya

DotDun · 19-01-2018, 16:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by yeloya

After spending 10 years in this forum, I still cannot understand why everybody is defying others' boat and or the way they sail.. Owning a boat yard, I've met all kind of owners; the ones who added every possible items (diving gears, triple mega anchors and 200 meters of chain, the heaviest possible dinghy and outboard, twin genset or WM, motorcycles, etc) and the ones that wanted to scrape a bit of paint for saving 30 kg. As long as the owners are happy, who cares ?
The only thing that I cannot undestand are the owners who buy a performance cat
paying an extra 80.000 € for a carbon mast, kevlar shrouds to save 300 kg, then putting everything on board and complaining that the boat doesn't perform up to their expectations..

Oh, the irony! Yeloya, you are human!!!

PaulinOz · 19-01-2018, 17:10

Quote: "6 tonnes payload is extreme."

Keep in mind on my choice of chariot, there is the much maligned 1000 lt of Fuel, 700 lt of water and 240 lt of black water. That adds up to dam near 2 tons before I even mention the 11 kW generator, 2kW solar array, 3kW inverter and MPPT chargers, extra 1100 amp/hours of batteries above std configuration, water maker, dinghy/motor, 2 x additional fridge/freezers to std 3 units, secondary anchor/warp and custom fully enclosed hardtop.

I am probably in the 4 to 5 ton vicinity, by the time you also add in food and alcohol, personal possessions and crew. At least I know I am not overloading the vessel of my choice.

Does every one need all that stuff to go cruising, off course not.

Does it make for a very comfortable life style aboard for myself, you bet.

In Yeloya words "As long as the owners are happy, who cares ?"

Well said mate.

Heath68 · 19-01-2018, 18:04

[QUOTE=tuskie;2558616]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulinOz

Quote: [I]
My priorities are different to start with, I want a good payload eg: around the 6,000 kg for fuel, water, sewage, equipment, provisions, people and gear. That negates me having a vessel that will sail at 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze. Not because I do not want to sail in 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze, because I could not afford that, as well as the 6 ton capacity. I set my own priorities and make my choice based on them.

Does everybody need/want that sort of load capacity, obviously not, but I do.[/eQUOTE]

Well said!

I'd also like to sail at 4 knots in 7 knots of breeze. I really would love that sort of light air performance. I know that I'd still have to motor if the wind was below 5 knots, but it would be great to sail above that. I'm also a liveaboard but my needs are simpler, no offence, but I can be satisfied with half PaulinOz' load, so 3 ton payload all up.

Obviuosly the new Dufour cat won't meet my sailing expectation, but can you suggest a brand/model of catamaran suitable for a couple to liveaboard that will?

BTW, I can't afford millions, not prepared to overload, have long ago decided that I'm not a boat builder and not interested in anything built out of Duflex. Genuine suggestions?

Have you considered the Neel 51... Very good in light airs and with good payload (€600k tho)