Drogues or sea anchor or neither

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

I'm not sure why people are retrieving a JSD using a winch. Maybe this is boat-dependent, but we found it very easy to simply lead the drogue to the bow and bring it in by hand over the main crossbeam while motoring slowly into the wind. If you must use a winch, there are good instructions or doing so using a "helper line" on the ACE sailmaker's website. Jordan Series Drogue - Launching and Retrieval

Deployment is even easier. You rig the bridles before leaving port, flake it into a bag and simply drop the chain overboard when the time comes.

We wish it was simple for a sailor to hand pull a wet Series Drogue from the stern to the bow. Unfortunately, rode, inflated cones, and weight attached to this drogue will drag through the water and generate loads. If a sailor chooses to lead the drogue to the bow be mindful of the following.

First, you normally have to motor for longer periods of time alongside the rode to generate slack. This increases the risk of running over the rode with your boat. A wave can also push your boat on top of the rode. So be careful. We have YouTube video showing our test boat being knocked off course during drogue retrieval. So we know this can happen.

Second, you’ll need to walk the rode up to the bow of your boat. All while attempting to safely pull the rode around mast shrouds, stanchion posts, and other equipment like a dinghy stored on deck. Watch your step, because it’s easy to trip over something. Especially when you’re hauling in the weight of wet rode, cones, and the required 35 to 50 pounds of weight attached to the Series Drogue.

If for whatever reason the rode loads up on you, it can pull you backwards. This happened to Teresa Carey in our YouTube video during calm weather conditions (post #77).

Teresa’s video and author Steve Dashew’s drogue testing log indicates a winch makes drogue retrieval easier and safer. So why add more steps to the retrieval process as shown in your link? This we feel complicates the issue similarly to leading the drogue to the bow.

Can the cones of the Series Drogue tangle or rip at the winch? Sometimes. However, many of the published reports of cone tears or rode parting are from the equipment not holding up in rough weather, not necessarily during retrieval. Teresa Carey and Zack Smith work together in our YouTube video and retrieve the Series Drogue with only minor damage to the drogue. The damage was caused by the chock.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Rustytony

Thanks very much for that. If you have time... do you know how it affects the sea?

I’ve seen it mentioned before... does it calm the surface or something? I can’t really imagine how that can happen though.

There is some very minor effect on the waves, but not enough to influence safety. Also, unless you are truly DDW, the waves are coming from the side. In fact, it is a myth, in most storms, that waves come from one direction. Often it is the crossing patterns that make them dangerous.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by p435

I will make some test but only next year. If there is interest I will publish my data here.

Measuring the force is both more accurate and simpler (since boat speed will be changing). Be certain to record the rope length, diameter, distance between anchor points (beam) and how it is weighted.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by Rustytony

Bay sailer only here.... so no experience in oceans. One day...

The YouTube’s I’ve seen of a cat with warp out in a loop still seem to have the cat flying. It looks to be only pulling a knot or less off the speed.

But I could be very wrong about that. Can anyone say what kind of reduction a looped line can achieve in boat speed? Thanks for any info.

Capt. Dave Houston deploys a storm drogue and a makeshift device in light winds. This is the best example of how towing a makeshift warp has little effect for a multihull sailboat.

You might be able to create enough drag with a U-shape warp if you add plenty of weight and fenders. It should at least provide some steering control and reduce the zigzag motion of a boat sailing down a wave. Commercial fisherman Gerrard Fiorentino used similar warp setups for decades. In the 1940s Fiorentino used car tires as boat fenders and as a makeshift drogue. A car tire creates a lot of drag if you add plenty of chain to them. Approximately 20 to 25 lbs.

Warps or car tires without weight have little holding power.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Measuring the force is both more accurate and simpler (since boat speed will be changing). Be certain to record the rope length, diameter, distance between anchor points (beam) and how it is weighted.

We appreciate your enthusiasm P435.

Fiorentino has been recording and publishing this kind of tow test data since 1998. It might prove a helpful outline for your testing. Our tests were verified by U.S. Navy and NASA engineers accompanying the tests.

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

We wish it was simple for a sailor to hand pull a wet Series Drogue from the stern to the bow. Unfortunately, rode, inflated cones, and weight attached to this drogue will drag through the water and generate loads. If a sailor chooses to lead the drogue to the bow be mindful of the following.

First, you normally have to motor for longer periods of time alongside the rode to generate slack. This increases the risk of running over the rode with your boat. A wave can also push your boat on top of the rode. So be careful. We have YouTube video showing our test boat being knocked off course during drogue retrieval. So we know this can happen.

Second, you’ll need to walk the rode up to the bow of your boat. All while attempting to safely pull the rode around mast shrouds, stanchion posts, and other equipment like a dinghy stored on deck. Watch your step, because it’s easy to trip over something. Especially when you’re hauling in the weight of wet rode, cones, and the required 35 to 50 pounds of weight attached to the Series Drogue.

If for whatever reason the rode loads up on you, it can pull you backwards. This happened to Teresa Carey in our YouTube video during calm weather conditions (post #77).

Teresa’s video and author Steve Dashew’s drogue testing log indicates a winch makes drogue retrieval easier and safer. So why add more steps to the retrieval process as shown in your link? This we feel complicates the issue similarly to leading the drogue to the bow.

Can the cones of the Series Drogue tangle or rip at the winch? Sometimes. However, many of the published reports of cone tears or rode parting are from the equipment not holding up in rough weather, not necessarily during retrieval. Teresa Carey and Zack Smith work together in our YouTube video and retrieve the Series Drogue with only minor damage to the drogue. The damage was caused by the chock.

Again, it just doesn't have to be that difficult. Admittedly, I speak from limited experience as I have only used our drogue once, but retrieval was quite easy. When conditions had calmed to 15 knots of wind and 2 meter seas I led a line from one of the bridle arms outside the rigging to the bow roller. I then simply released the bridle arms one at a time. The boat swung around into the wind, as expected, and I began to retrieve the drogue using a winch, because that was standard procedure as far as I knew. As I was untangling cones from the winch my crew was simply pulling the drogue aboard from the bow. He had a nice pile of drogue behind him by the time I got the winch clear so we just finished pulling it in by hand. No drama, no tangles, no pulled muscles. The whole process took just a few minutes. It is possible that I am favored of the gods, in fact I am quite sure of it, but our experience retrieving a JSD was nothing like the accounts I have read of people retrieving over the stern with the boat still moving.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by mikereed100

Again, it just doesn't have to be that difficult. Admittedly, I speak from limited experience as I have only used our drogue once, but retrieval was quite easy. When conditions had calmed to 15 knots of wind and 2 meter seas I led a line from one of the bridle arms outside the rigging to the bow roller. I then simply released the bridle arms one at a time. The boat swung around into the wind, as expected, and I began to retrieve the drogue using a winch, because that was standard procedure as far as I knew. As I was untangling cones from the winch my crew was simply pulling the drogue aboard from the bow. He had a nice pile of drogue behind him by the time I got the winch clear so we just finished pulling it in by hand. No drama, no tangles, no pulled muscles. The whole process took just a few minutes. It is possible that I am favored of the gods, in fact I am quite sure of it, but our experience retrieving a JSD was nothing like the accounts I have read of people retrieving over the stern with the boat still moving.

The difficulties in retrieving a Series Drogue are well documented. You may have experienced a successful retrieval from the bow instead of the stern, but there are challenges that sailors need to be aware of. You still have to manage the leader line making sure it doesn’t trail in the water or become entangled in deck gear. If you’re blown off course or turn in the wrong direction you can quickly run over the rode. An inexperienced or small crew of two only adds to the challenge because you need someone to manage the helm during recovery. This might leave only one person to handle the SD. However, the SD frequently requires two people for recovery as shown in the Teresa video (post #77).

A more pressing problem is the anchor roller. A fully inflated Series Drogue with its required 35 to 50 pounds of weight can place a lot of loading on the roller. As the boat bounces around the rode will slide to one side of the bracket. This places strain on the bracket which can bend it. We bent two anchor brackets during past testing. The action we are describing is referred to as shearing. Shearing can easily chafe through rode and likely tear cones if they pass through the roller.

Loading can be reduced as you motor up on the Series Drogue to create slack. The problem is now the 35 to 50 pounds of weight will sink. This pulls the rode downward and you end up with shearing again. What makes matters more challenging are waves. As the boat rises up a wave, even a small wave, the shock loads caused by the inflated cones are significant. Interestingly, this isn’t an issue for para-anchor recovery as long as the para-anchor has a floating trip line.

Most of the issues created by bow retrieval of the Series Drogue can be eliminated by recovering the equipment from the stern. Why? One big reason is you can take the weather on the quarter. Taking the weather on the quarter really stabilizes the boat. The wind pushing the boat helps keep even tension in the system to reduce shock loading. In our twenty plus years of recovering equipment we have never broken or bent any hardware in the cockpit. This includes the winch.

Overall, it’s just more comfortable in the cockpit. More things to hold on to, easier to communicate with the helmsperson who might be the only other sailor able to help out. Which brings us to the question -- What if you need a hand recovering the Series Drogue and maintaining control of the helm at the same time? This is much easier if you are doing both from the cockpit.

Like you said Mikereed100, maybe you’re favored by the gods and that’s why your recovery went well. We think owning a multihull does help. It’s nice having that extra space and a level platform to work from. Single hull boats tend to bounce around a lot more, but they also typically pop back up when they get knocked down. Multihulls once flipped over, stay upside down. There are always pros and cons to everything.

[rabbi]

Ah you are back and keep spreading your totally unbiased view of the JSD!

Since you seem to ignore my post #84 I think I'll jump in again.

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

We appreciate your enthusiasm P435.

Fiorentino has been recording and publishing this kind of tow test data since 1998. It might prove a helpful outline for your testing. Our tests were verified by U.S. Navy and NASA engineers accompanying the tests.

I see that tech report #136 lists the same data as this comparison video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4l3CbgUCU8

my totally uneducated conclusion is that this report is based on the data acquired during this sea test.

I can't see any US Navy or NASA engineer accompanying or verifying this test. Where are they?
Which engineer (beside those on Fiorentino's paylist) has verified your test methods? Like comparing apples to melons by including devices rated for very different boat sizes, messing things up during deployment and not repeating a test after you realized you messed it up?
Has the test equipment been calibrated? Why not include load cell readings in the video? GPS & boat speed readings?
No raw video available but only an edited one?

Doesn't sound very scientific to me, but then I don't pretend to be a scientist.


As a starter, please revisit my questions from post #84 that you choose to ignore:

If you prefer to stay on topic:
in your video below you compare a Shark rated for 25to and a JSD for 5to, plus a couple of other drogues. The JSD was severly fouled after incorrect deployment (by the Shark inventor himself I reckon). The extend of the tangle can be seen starting @14:32 : the first section is tangeld in a way that the cones of this section are reversed and not engaged at all, which reduces the number of active cones by at least a quarter.

Why not use similar drogue sizing for a comparison?
Why not re-test a properly deployed JSD after you realized you messed it up?

[p435]

Links to reports and the video are interesting. However the documents and the video appear to me as to missing information for an objective comparison.

I am especially missing information on the rode length. It cannot be excluded that one or the other alternatives to the Shark Drogue would perform better with a longer rode. At least the recommendations of the dragging device designer should be documented and followed.

As for the calibration of the load cell, it is needed the moment someone wants to apply any dragging device. The load on his boat could be different because the load cell is not calibrated.

The reports include no information on the calibration (procedure, values, and errors). This information is needed for anyone who wants to use any of the dragging devices and expects the given load applies his boat as well.



Although I appreciate the work done, more objectivity is needed in a video and written reports.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by p435

Links to reports and the video are interesting. However the documents and the video appear to me as to missing information for an objective comparison.

I guess one can't ask for objectivity from someone wiht a financial interest.

Who would go to the Mantus website for an unbiased comparison of anchor designs?
Or to Tesla's website for an unbiased view of the car market and viabiity of EVs?
Maybe visit Lucky Strike looking for reliable research papers on lung cancer and smoking habbits?


All I can see is "infomercials", biased reports of experiments that I would not call scientific research. This would not be a problem if it wasn't presented as scientific facts supported by NASA and US Navy, and use to dismiss other manufacturers.


I wonder what would happen if Oceanbrake or ACE jumps in and posts similarly inconsistent comparisons as scientific facts, constantly blattering about perceived weaknesses of the Shark drogue.
This behaviour reminds me of shady car dealers spreading FUD about their competition.


Firointo doesn't care to address concerns about their research / experiments but I guess he'll be back to remind of the forum rules once again.

[Bluebeard]

The question I still have is:-


Would a series drogue deployed from the bow work better than a parachute anchor? I'm presuming a much bigger drogue than the Jordan one, so that it can effectively stop the boat.


I have three points:-
Firstly - I don't want a wave washing over stern, my boat is clearly vulnerable to green water over the stern, in the same way most cats are
Secondly:- The boat is designed and built to go forward into the waves, which is more of point one.

Third:- If the series drogue is long ( that that begs the question - how long?)
It will lie in more than just the forward face of the wave, or the back face or the trough and so will keep a more constant drag. The weakness of a parachute appears to be that it certain point in the wave length it is being pushed towards the boat and not providing drag. I have heard this said, but don't have experience or evidence, that is why I ask the question.


And I hate to spoil a good squabble, but the video clearly show the JSD working better than all the others



Ian

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Bluebeard

The question I still have is:-


Would a series drogue deployed from the bow work better than a parachute anchor? I'm presuming a much bigger drogue than the Jordan one, so that it can effectively stop the boat.


I have three points:-
Firstly - I don't want a wave washing over stern, my boat is clearly vulnerable to green water over the stern, in the same way most cats are
Secondly:- The boat is designed and built to go forward into the waves, which is more of point one.

Third:- If the series drogue is long ( that that begs the question - how long?)
It will lie in more than just the forward face of the wave, or the back face or the trough and so will keep a more constant drag. The weakness of a parachute appears to be that it certain point in the wave length it is being pushed towards the boat and not providing drag. I have heard this said, but don't have experience or evidence, that is why I ask the question.

My uneducated guess is yes, but it should not carry too much. Too much weight causes the tail and its cones to sink to deep. Cones in an almost vertical position don't ad much drag.
How Manny and how long... good question.

Originally Posted by Bluebeard

And I hate to spoil a good squabble, but the video clearly show the JSD working better than all the others

But the Shark comes in a neat package and is easier to retrieve. Ok the latter is only important if you survived.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by p435

Links to reports and the video are interesting. However the documents and the video appear to me as to missing information for an objective comparison.

I am especially missing information on the rode length. It cannot be excluded that one or the other alternatives to the Shark Drogue would perform better with a longer rode. At least the recommendations of the dragging device designer should be documented and followed.

As for the calibration of the load cell, it is needed the moment someone wants to apply any dragging device. The load on his boat could be different because the load cell is not calibrated.

The reports include no information on the calibration (procedure, values, and errors). This information is needed for anyone who wants to use any of the dragging devices and expects the given load applies his boat as well.



Although I appreciate the work done, more objectivity is needed in a video and written reports.

All relevant information is included within the reports and videos. Our reports are confirmed for accuracy by third party engineers working for the Department of the Navy and NASA. The reports follow standard protocol for tow test data collection and the load cell information is in the reports. Additionally, we have paid receipts for load cell calibration - It’s expensive.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Bluebeard

The question I still have is:-


Would a series drogue deployed from the bow work better than a parachute anchor? I'm presuming a much bigger drogue than the Jordan one, so that it can effectively stop the boat.


I have three points:-
Firstly - I don't want a wave washing over stern, my boat is clearly vulnerable to green water over the stern, in the same way most cats are
Secondly:- The boat is designed and built to go forward into the waves, which is more of point one.

Third:- If the series drogue is long ( that that begs the question - how long?)
It will lie in more than just the forward face of the wave, or the back face or the trough and so will keep a more constant drag. The weakness of a parachute appears to be that it certain point in the wave length it is being pushed towards the boat and not providing drag. I have heard this said, but don't have experience or evidence, that is why I ask the question.


And I hate to spoil a good squabble, but the video clearly show the JSD working better than all the others



Ian

Ummm, NO. A drag limiting device such as a JSD is designed so that the boat continues to move at a slow speed (2-3 knots, potentially faster during a breaking wave). To protect your rudders only deploy a drogue from your sterns. The moving boat provides a cushioning effect to the breaking wave so the strike impact is not that much. And your sterns are tougher than you think; though perhaps not the big glass door to the salon.

Sea anchors such as a parachute anchor are designed to stop your boat and should be deployed from the bow.

The length is based on your size, windage and displacement and is generally well over 100m. Due to placing weight on the end (unlike the pretty much useless test in calm waters shown in the video) the drogue always has loaded cones somewhere along its length as it lies well below the surface.

Parachute anchors generally need longer rodes to maintain their position offset in the swell from your boat. A stretchy rode helps to keep constant tension on the boat. A well set parachute anchor shouldn’t be much more vulnerable than a JSD, though I’ve seen reports of them getting turned inside out by large breaking waves.

Take a look at the Ocean Brake site to educate yourself on how a JSD works. Then look at the drag database for the actual reports about how various boats using all sorts of techniques weathered (or not) storm conditions.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

Our tests were verified by U.S. Navy and NASA engineers accompanying the tests.

becomes

Originally Posted by Fiorentino

Our reports are confirmed for accuracy by third party engineers working for the Department of the Navy and NASA.