Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-10-2018, 00:53   #31
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 925
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaLulu View Post
I havenít been able to find an account of a parachute sea anchor that was deployed from the bows of a catamaran in storm conditions that faired well. If you know of any, please send me a link. I have read several accounts of drogue deployments from catamarans that have faired well. As I mentioned, the database is small for cats so it seems a reasonable course of action to have both OR just a drogue. I personally would not rely solely on a parachute sea anchor, given the experiences of others, and do not intend to have one aboard.
Are you being specific in your statement about deploying from the bows in storm conditions? If so, it seems you have missed a major understanding on how Para-anchors are properly, ie effectively AND safely, deployed.

You do not deploy from the bow during a storm. Why would you do that? You should deploy from the cockpit with the rode lightly attached to stanchion bases down the length of one hull nearest the helm. You have set up the para-anchor before departing on your bluewater passage, as a matter of good seamanship.

On Youtube you can see Dr. Gavin La Seur in a Force 10 storm with his Para-anchor deployed and maybe you could read his book about Multihull Seamanship for specifics on many aspects of this topic. Highly recommended.

Have you actually read the drag device database? Refer Case S/C 8 in major storm in Gulf of Alaska on a Kelsall cat. S/C-8 Catamaran, Kelsall | Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base

There is lots of good information out there from experienced bluewater skippers on storm survival that Mr. Google will lead you to.
__________________

BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2018, 01:31   #32
Registered User
 
Dsanduril's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: South Africa, Toward Caribbean
Boat: Outremer 50S
Posts: 1,745
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

One thing I don't see in these discussions is a conversation about location and type of storm. A lot of the 'common knowledge' about storm management and the various drag devices seems to come from middle to high-latitude sailing. In these conditions it is quite normal to have a single wave train and to have storm winds generally aligned with that wave train. In those cases a drag device is pretty simple.

In tropical sailing (which is the sole domain of many cruisers) this is less usual. Here we frequently see low pressure storms (even when not hurricane/cyclone/typhoon) of relatively small diameters that create multiple wave trains. In addition we frequently see swells coming out of the higher latitudes, frequently at close to right angles to the local wave train. In these conditions it is much harder to successfully deploy a drag device, especially one that limits your steering capabilities.

On our most recent passage we had a revolving 'storm' form right over our heads (with about 24 hours forecast notice - we were only able to dodge to a limited extent). We ended up with about 6 hours of sustained winds >50 knots (a summer breeze in some locales), then it died out over the next 36 hours. There were three distinct wave trains; a local SE swell, a SW swell from the higher latitudes, and the local storm-generated waves (W to SW to start). We do have a drag device, but did not feel it would be at all useful in these conditions. It was never life-threatening, but active management seemed to be the best tactic.

Of course every situation and every decision under these conditions it different, YMMV.
__________________

Dsanduril is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2018, 02:24   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,465
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dsanduril View Post
One thing I don't see in these discussions is a conversation about location and type of storm. A lot of the 'common knowledge' about storm management and the various drag devices seems to come from middle to high-latitude sailing. In these conditions it is quite normal to have a single wave train and to have storm winds generally aligned with that wave train. In those cases a drag device is pretty simple.

In tropical sailing (which is the sole domain of many cruisers) this is less usual. Here we frequently see low pressure storms (even when not hurricane/cyclone/typhoon) of relatively small diameters that create multiple wave trains. In addition we frequently see swells coming out of the higher latitudes, frequently at close to right angles to the local wave train. In these conditions it is much harder to successfully deploy a drag device, especially one that limits your steering capabilities.

On our most recent passage we had a revolving 'storm' form right over our heads (with about 24 hours forecast notice - we were only able to dodge to a limited extent). We ended up with about 6 hours of sustained winds >50 knots (a summer breeze in some locales), then it died out over the next 36 hours. There were three distinct wave trains; a local SE swell, a SW swell from the higher latitudes, and the local storm-generated waves (W to SW to start). We do have a drag device, but did not feel it would be at all useful in these conditions. It was never life-threatening, but active management seemed to be the best tactic.

Of course every situation and every decision under these conditions it different, YMMV.
you are making some very valid points. Going back to my experience, I remember seeing considerable waves when still calm, before the front hit us. These were probably ones that hit us from 90 degrees from main train when we were in it.

Drogue and steep wave can cause structural damage, like rip out the cleats and bit more off the boat. If having choice, would deploy para anchor (pre rigged) in seas we experienced. Taxing for rudders though. And out boat has LOTS of buoyancy which would create large forces when one of these extra steep waves comes around.... Probably best option to deploy ropes, as per lagoon manual, so speed is limited somewhat only and gives you bit of extra time to maneuver and no chance of ripping out part of the boat.
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2018, 05:15   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 925
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

It goes without saying that if your attachment points for either drogues or parachute anchor are not VERY strong, you need to reconsider your options. A failure of your not-strong-enuf point in the middle of a storm is a scary thought.

On our build we have done carbon chainplates built in at the right places & angles and loads shared over structural components of the boat. Together with correctly spec'd Crosby 209A shackles to eliminate chafe, it's a good robust solution that is not fugly either.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2018, 05:25   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,465
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
It goes without saying that if your attachment points for either drogues or parachute anchor are not VERY strong, you need to reconsider your options. A failure of your not-strong-enuf point in the middle of a storm is a scary thought.

On our build we have done carbon chainplates built in at the right places & angles and loads shared over structural components of the boat. Together with correctly spec'd Crosby 209A shackles to eliminate chafe, it's a good robust solution that is not fugly either.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
exactly my point. I have heard of bows ripped out in storm on a mooring.

Same thing can happen with sterns. I doubt any boat can be pulled thru speeding wave's green water.

This is even scarier.
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2018, 06:08   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 925
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Yes a boat, particularly a cat that stays up higher in breaking waves compared to a mono, can be pulled through breaking waves. And many have been, as testified to by many accounts. Have you not seen the example of Ramtha in the Queens Birthday storm? Or read Gavin Le Sueur's account of their 36 hour storm laying to a parachute anchor?

On what basis do you think oherwise?


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-10-2018, 07:26   #37
Registered User
 
HR42's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Sydney, Australia
Boat: ‘89 Hallberg-Rassy 42
Posts: 21
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeV View Post
I'm going to take Skip Novak's advice and practice heaving to. Need to be able to master that anyway, and he's never done anything but, in every kind of bad weather there is. Check out his reasoning on Youtube.


And thats fine up to 35/40 knots then forget it. 50 knots and above in bad seas and you canít heave to safely on a normal boat. I tried to heave too in 45/55 knots and bad seas and almost came undone
HR42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2018, 20:06   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: USVI
Boat: Fountaine Pajot Helia 44
Posts: 79
Images: 4
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Are you being specific in your statement about deploying from the bows in storm conditions? If so, it seems you have missed a major understanding on how Para-anchors are properly, ie effectively AND safely, deployed.



You do not deploy from the bow during a storm. Why would you do that? You should deploy from the cockpit with the rode lightly attached to stanchion bases down the length of one hull nearest the helm. You have set up the para-anchor before departing on your bluewater passage, as a matter of good seamanship.



On Youtube you can see Dr. Gavin La Seur in a Force 10 storm with his Para-anchor deployed and maybe you could read his book about Multihull Seamanship for specifics on many aspects of this topic. Highly recommended.



Have you actually read the drag device database? Refer Case S/C 8 in major storm in Gulf of Alaska on a Kelsall cat. S/C-8 Catamaran, Kelsall | Victor Shane's Drag Device Data Base



There is lots of good information out there from experienced bluewater skippers on storm survival that Mr. Google will lead you to.


Mea culpa as I had not read this specific account. Iím still not sure that the deployment they describe is the one you allude to as they mention difficulty with the gull-catcher, suggesting they may have been at the bow to address the issue. It does sound like a reasonable approach.
PapaLulu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2018, 22:10   #39
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 5,438
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Lots of "interesting" advice.


a. Skip is a very experienced monohull sailor, but not multihulls, by his own admission. Thus, he is not an authority on this subject and would tell you so.
b. You don't heave to in a cat if the weather is really scary, which is what we are talking about. That is perhaps the most sure way to flip over.
c. JSD requires monster attachment points. However, the OP did not say JSD, he said drogue. With a conventional drogue, like the Gale Rider, the forces are no higher than the winches can manage, by design. Doesn't matter how bad the weather, they rip through the water to absorb shock.
d. Read Shane's Drag Database if you have not. That will clear up a few misconceptions, specifically re. mono vs. multi. They are different and should be treated differently. Thus, often people who disagree are actually talking about very different things.


Sail small boats, so you understand how things go when over powered. Then practice in breezy to gale conditions. Until you have played with drogues in at least near gale conditions it is difficult to understand the function and the details that make them work. You need to dial it in under conditions where mistakes are recoverable.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-10-2018, 23:23   #40
Registered User
 
Dan GB's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: UK
Boat: Shuttleworth 45 catamaran
Posts: 85
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Quote:
Originally Posted by thinwater View Post
Lots of "interesting" advice.


a. Skip is a very experienced monohull sailor, but not multihulls, by his own admission. Thus, he is not an authority on this subject and would tell you so.
b. You don't heave to in a cat if the weather is really scary, which is what we are talking about. That is perhaps the most sure way to flip over.
c. JSD requires monster attachment points. However, the OP did not say JSD, he said drogue. With a conventional drogue, like the Gale Rider, the forces are no higher than the winches can manage, by design. Doesn't matter how bad the weather, they rip through the water to absorb shock.
d. Read Shane's Drag Database if you have not. That will clear up a few misconceptions, specifically re. mono vs. multi. They are different and should be treated differently. Thus, often people who disagree are actually talking about very different things.


Sail small boats, so you understand how things go when over powered. Then practice in breezy to gale conditions. Until you have played with drogues in at least near gale conditions it is difficult to understand the function and the details that make them work. You need to dial it in under conditions where mistakes are recoverable.
Hi Thinwater,

Following this thread with interest and have read a lot over the years about multihulls in heavy weather.

No particular axe to grind or anything, but I was curious about your comment about heaving to and flipping. The most sure way to flip over? Can you expand on that?

Cheers,
Dan GB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 00:06   #41
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Sydney, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 925
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Just a thought on the heaving to aspect, not to pre-empt Thinwater, but I think we're talking about seriously rough conditions here, as in maybe fully developed, large breaking waves.

Seems it would be too easy for a hove to cat to get hit by a breaker and pushed beam on to the seas, and that's a definite no no.

By all means heave to, if your cat can do it, but in conditions a bit milder than sea states of breaking waves. If it continues to deteriorate, then deploy either drogue or parachute depending on the situation.
BigBeakie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 02:56   #42
Registered User
 
fxykty's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Auckland
Boat: Outremer 55L
Posts: 571
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Beam on actually may not be that bad even in moderate breaking seas, as cats (especially with daggerboards retracted, but even mini keels as they really donít have much depth nor area really) will skid sideways. Larger seas, too scary to contemplate but abandoned cats that have been found later still floating and left to themselves had probably laid beam to the seas.

The real problem with cats heaving to in breaking seas is the risk of being driven backwards and tripping over the sterns. Unlike a monohull, even a relatively heavy catamaran has much more windage and much less inertia so that it wonít punch through a breaking wave when hove to.

Speed limiting drogue if you have room to leeward and not too extreme, or JSD or parachute anchor if not much room and/or survival conditions.
fxykty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 07:46   #43
Registered User
 
FuzzyFeat's Avatar

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Edenton NC
Boat: Lock Crowther 37' Catamaran - ORYOKI
Posts: 38
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Here is another vote for the Jordan Series Drogue. The wife and i were the first to use one during storm conditions back in 1991. We were sailing a Searunner 37 and found it to be excellent. Breaking waves thundered under the wings while i stood in the companion way watching the storm petrels fly in the troughs - thoroughly enjoyed the storm for the two days it took to blow out.
__________________
There is no sense in having a plan if you're not going to pretend to follow it.
FuzzyFeat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 08:10   #44
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 5,438
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

I meant seriously bad, of course. Otherwise flipping is not an issue.


With a cat, better strategies are either running bare poles (or small jib or drogue--too many variations to count) or fore reaching, which is similar to heaving to, but still sailing forward with a tiny jib and main, and the traveler way down. The point is you MUST be moving forward, not forced backwards. As soon as you fear moving backwards, it is time to change strategies.


Another thing to remember is that the ride in a cat with big beam seas is terrible. Very hard on gear too. You will want to do something else.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-10-2018, 08:17   #45
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 5,438
Re: Drogues or sea anchor or neither

Quote:
Originally Posted by fxykty View Post
... abandoned cats that have been found later still floating and left to themselves had probably laid beam to the seas.

I wonder. I've had 3 cruising multihulls, and unless the helm was over, all three would naturally go DDW if left alone. I always assumed it was the windage of furled head sails.


Don't most boats have lee helm under bare poles? Isn't this why they yaw at anchor?
__________________

__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
anchor, drogue, sea anchor

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Drogues or sea anchor or neither rabbi Multihull Sailboats 10 04-11-2018 16:06
Use of drogues, sea anchors sneuman Seamanship & Boat Handling 8 15-12-2005 07:06



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.