Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-05-2012, 22:27   #46
Registered User
 
ovrmyhead's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Pacific Coast of Mexico
Boat: Union Polaris cutter, 36'
Posts: 80
Re: Dragging the chain

Quote:
Originally Posted by canadianllama View Post
I didn't read them all. But I use a kellet. A weight I drop down the rode after I anchor to keep the scope lower and weight the rode down a bit when it's really tugging. My kellet line is about 30' long with about 20lbs of weight Never have dragged an anchor. But I have still had a lot of sleepless nights. It's getting better though. 26ft sailboat.
Been wondering about these, anybody else have kellet experience?
__________________

ovrmyhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 23:38   #47
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,085
Re: Dragging the chain

Here we go, this is a road well travelled. Kellets versus no kellets.

Personally If you are going to carry the weight, then carry it in anchor.
__________________

__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 00:33   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Adelaide Aus
Boat: Tasman elite Cat
Posts: 82
Send a message via ICQ to Steve Thompson Send a message via AIM to Steve Thompson
Re: Dragging the chain

What Factor says is right on the mark .No amount of electronic gadgets will work as good as a oversized anchor and chain.A bridal is a must have on a cat otherwise it will skate all over the place.
Cheers Steve
__________________
Steve Thompson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 00:58   #49
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Dragging the chain

Good anchoring gear is the most important, but anchor alarms provide a very valuable back up. A bit like having a seaworthy boat and a liferaft.
The anchor alarm is a crew member constantly on anchor watch. With the right gps,which many boats have anyway, you never get false alarms and they consume very little power.
We anchor over 300 days a year an the anchor alarm is on 24 hours a day. Learn how to set the alarm and use it. One day you will be glad you did.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 02:59   #50
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: Van DeStat Super Dogger 31'
Posts: 7,334
Re: Dragging the chain

Quote:
Originally Posted by foggysail View Post
Oh I don't agree with that. I have been the anchor route, 33 & 44# Bruces on my Hunter 30 years ago. They held well until our harbors filled with ell grass.

My 40 Silverton aft cabin started with my purchase of a 55# Delta.........it slipped; upgraded to an 88# Delta..........it slipped. Gave up on the Deltas which are now in my basement and purchased an 80# Maxwell Supreme that will not be tested until some time in July.

Each settings with the Delta anchors was with scopes in excess of 5-6, the best one can do in our crowed harbors. I have an all chain rode (5/16") along with a huge windlass. EACH TIME I SET THOSE ANCHORS, I PULLED BACK WITH TWO EACH CRUSADER 454 ENGINES UP TO THE POINT WHERE I FEARED I WOULD RIP OUT THE BOAT'S DECK CLEATS.

I find there is more to anchoring than just pulling on the rode.

Foggy
Ahh yes, I see that I didn't word my post as well as I could have

Taken your way, I agree with you.

What I was trying to say was that if the anchor drags when using full reverse power, then it wasn't set properly to begin with; thus "no anchor should drag when applying full reverse power" would have been better.

Thanks for spotting the potential misinformation
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 08:49   #51
Moderator Emeritus
 
hummingway's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gabriola Island & Victoria, British Columbia
Boat: Cooper 416 Honeysuckle
Posts: 6,933
Images: 5
Re: Dragging the chain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasman View Post
Thank you everyone for some great tips and your knowledge. Will look forward to putting them into practice.
One thing though, does the extra chain, say 10:1 laying on the bottom actually hold you in all but light conditions or there another reason? I always thought it was for the allowance in tide.
The length is a different function from the use of chain. It's to keep the angle you're pulling at as acute as possible so the anchor holds better. Your scope calculation should compensate for the highest tide you're going to see. Chain guards against chafe but nylon provides some spring. With chain it's important to use a snubber.

Where I sail there's rarely much room so 5:1 is a pretty common ratio but in a snug harbour with good holding that will work.
__________________
“We are the universe contemplating itself” - Carl Sagan

hummingway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 08:52   #52
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Re: Dragging the chain

A good night's sleep is critical to safety. Sleeping well is as much a requirement as being awake and focused when on watch.
__________________
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 16:43   #53
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: Dragging the chain

Quote:
Originally Posted by ovrmyhead View Post
Been wondering about these, anybody else have kellet experience?
No, because through multiple forms of research over years I feel that it does little and when the wind pipes up it does nothing at all.

Sorry I don't have links to the tests. Maybe Gord will have them.

Some swear by them so it seems it can be a religious thing.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 17:50   #54
Registered User
 
Reefmagnet's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: puɐןsuǝǝnb 'ʎɐʞɔɐɯ
Boat: Nantucket Island 33
Posts: 2,737
Re: Dragging the chain

In my old fin keeler we had the an issue with the nylon anchor rode wrapping around the keel in the middle of the night if tide, wind and current conditions were "just right". This would have been solved using a kellet, but in the end we went to all chain anyway which solved the problem. FWIW I also found that the nylon rode and boat length of heavy chain actually set better, was more comfortable when choppy and made a lot less noise then all chain with 20m of nylon snubber.
__________________
Reefmagnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 18:51   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 90
Re: Dragging the Chain

When I first dropped the 35# CQR for this 35' monohull sailboat, I'd hear dragging with every tide change. Then I dropped a 15' length of heavy chain halfway down the chain rode to use as a sentinel. It stopped the dragging noise. I stayed put, until the rope holding the sentinel up chaffed through. It wasn't long after that when the chain started pulling the bow underwater as the tide rose. Always have a hack-saw handy!
Sentinels work & are great, but, be careful & guard against chafe.

Now I have to wonder, what was dragging? Was some chain rode lying on the ground and it just dragged around the anchor whenever the tide changed, or was the actual CQR dragging along the bottom before it reset? Sometimes it dragged for a longer distance than the scope I had out, so, the anchor had to be dragging some times, but I have to wonder if the chain dragging makes the same sound.

An anchor alarm is King, & so is having a good system to keep the power on all the time. The Lowrance Mark 4 draws only 1/4 amp w/ the sonar turned off. The black & white screen version draws less power. I like cutting off the sonar so my body can take a break from the electric fields from it. There's no need for it w/ an anchor alarm.

The dolphins were blowing bubbles outside the hatch, telling me to quiet down my dinghi bumping into the fender.
__________________
liveaboardL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 19:21   #56
Registered User
 
Nicholson58's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Live aboard
Boat: Camper & Nicholson58 Ketch - ROXY Traverse City, Michigan No.668283
Posts: 3,466
Images: 83
Re: Dragging the Chain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasman View Post
Alright, people, its time to come clean.

My biggest fear when I finally purchase a cat is dragging the anchor while I'm asleep.
I remember bareboating in the Whitsundays and was awake more than asleep in fear of the worst, running aground, shipwrecked and god knows what else, all in 3 mtrs of water!
Mind you it was a mono, so forgive me for that.

However, are there any souls out there who had the same experience and if so, how long did it take to get your confidence up?

I long to "drop the hook" anywhere I please, but I'm still afraid of dragging?
Get a good anchor; get an AIS with anchor alarm. We love our Vesper Watchmate 850. I added a loud aux alarm that sounds in the master cabin.
__________________
Nicholson58 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 19:34   #57
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: Dragging the Chain

The old threads are the best

Noise transmitted up the chain can certainly be annoying. If you have all chain rode using a snubber will reduce the noise and also adds some elasticity and takes the load off the windlass.

A sentinel will stop the chain moving along the bottom in very light conditions, but it will therefore make you swing differently to other boats. The anchors holding should not suspect in the sort of conditions where a sentinel will fix the chain to the bottom.

If the anchor is well set it should rotate rather than move during a change. Once an anchor starts dragging it rarely resets, unless conditions change. I think from your description it is more likely that you were just hearing the chain moving.

When using the anchor alarm you need to also allow for the for distance between the bow and the GPS aerial.
Many people set the anchor alarm waypoint when they drop the anchor forgetting this distance. If this is done at one side of the circle the boat will settle approximately the rode length from the drop waypoint. However with a tide or wind change the boat will move the rode length +2x the distance between the bow and GPS aerial. For example if the rode is 40m and the GPS aerial is 10m back from the bow and the waypoint is recorded as the anchor is dropped. The boat will be 40m from the waypoint initially, but with a 180 degree shift in the direction of pull the boat will be 40 +2x10=60m away. This is without the anchor dragging, or moving.
This can confuse people into thinking the anchor has moved, or dragged.

Setting the anchor alarm centre directly over the anchor is better. If this is done the distance between alarm point and GPS position should remain constant as the boat swings around and reaches the end of rode. This requires using a displaced waypoint which is easy to do on some marine GPS units (and smartphone apps), but not others. Few people bother to take this step, but it is great indication of dragging (or not) in severe wind, or current shifts.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 20:17   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Dragging the Chain

There is a way I've occasionally used which it strikes me would be a good option for anyone seeking to improve both hold and snubbing resistance, particularly for boats with a long all-chain rode, using (by 'old school' yardstick) "light" chain.

Given that long-term self-snubbing (in an entirely chafe-free manner) is highly desirable for unattended anchoring, I'm planning to post it on the unattended anchoring thread.

NB: This is not the 'vertical zig-zag rode' idea I've posted a year or two ago, which was particularly effective in shallow water (which can pose serious anchor holding challenges)

This method works in shallow or deep water , but complements the other method nicely because it works particularly well in deeper places.

And it requires absolutely minimal additional equipment: in fact, a box of shackles is all it takes.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 22:08   #59
Registered User
 
Mirage Gecko's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sunshine Coast Hinterland
Boat: Seawind 1200 TEC 3
Posts: 430
Re: Dragging the chain

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamicatana View Post
the OP was referring to a catamaran, and I've not seen it said yet:

Multihulls. must. lie. to. a. bridle.

Each arm of the bridle should be equal to boat beam.

There should be catenary on the anchor rode between the bridle and the main hull, or the bridle isn't working.

Reference "MULTIHULL SEAMANSHIP" by Gavin le Sueur
The above confuses me a bit .No argument but would like to understand more as I have a 6 mtr wide cat so following the above each arm of the bridle should be 6 mtrs.Im OK so far but often we anchor in 2/3 mtrs of water and sometimes not much tide or wind 4 to 1 scope gives say 12 mtrs of anchor chain plus probably 3 mtrs of bridle out the front.
In calm conditions wouldn't the joint of the bridle and chain often be sitting on the bottom?
As for the catenary I assume this is in the bridle arm from hull to join to chain when in sufficient water.
__________________
Mirage Gecko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2014, 22:14   #60
Registered User
 
Mirage Gecko's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Sunshine Coast Hinterland
Boat: Seawind 1200 TEC 3
Posts: 430
Re: Dragging the Chain

Strike my comment on the catenary I re read again the post and was missing the bloody obvious which is well understood but still not sure on the bridle length
__________________

__________________
Mirage Gecko is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:59.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.