Downwind sailing: what combo to use

[jbinbi]

My lagoon suggests not heading down with the main more than 135, I push this to 150, but also not good for the sail. If I were to sail a course for a long distance where I was in the 150 -180 range, I would consider using 2 jibs.

I already have a roller furling jib. I have the spinnaker halyard for my genaker, but that is not a really for wing and wing. I am sure others have done this, I don't want another stay if possible. Can I get a roller furling jib on a wire rather than solid rod (like the original ones were), and attach this to where the genaker goes?

I am sure this combo is what long range cruisers are using going downwind.

[yeloya]

As you said, cats (mono's as well but cats more because of roached mainsail) do not sail well after 130-140 degrees. Mono's sometimes prefer to sail with the genoa alone as generally their main is small and genoas very large. If the wind is strong enough (>20 kts true) you cann sail with main+genoa to every angle but the trades generally blow in the range of 15 kts. In the Atlantic , I 've used two jibs rigged on the forestay. (I have two canals on the stay) That's extremely handy, easy to handle and reef unreef simply by rolling or unrolling the furler. That works very well at 180 +/- 10 degrees w/out a pole. With a simple barber hauler it works even better. You just take a short line with a block attached to amidiship cleat and pass the genoa sheet from this to the winch.
I also had a assymetrical spi (runner) with sock that I used almost always w/out the main. Roller furling gib on a wire is very costly and easy to mess up, I don't recommend it.


Cheers


Yeloya

[dlymn]

Running 150+ is always a fine art. On our monohull, we pole out our 150 genoa. The gennaker collapses close to DDW. The roller furler has 2 grooves and I do have a spare 150. I've never tried 2 headsails because I'm not sure how 2 halyards work at the top of the furler.
I would sail at 135 with main and genoa or gennaker. Then gybe to 135 when 5 miles off course (I do this at 1 mile but I'm a short run island hopper). Some people argue VMG is better this way

[UNCIVILIZED]

It's quite common to do what you're asking about. Meaning to set a jib having an integral "wire" flying on a furler. Wire being in quotes, since some such sails will have kevlar or spectra luffs in lieu of metal. And all can be set from various types of furlers if you so desire. Anything from a staysail furler, to a Code 0 or Spinnaker furler. And if you like, purchase can be added at the head or tack of the sail in order to achieve better luff tension, & thus upwind ability. Such as with true/racing Code 0's
It's a really good option for light air sails.

[jbinbi]

I am thinking on a long passage, say Newport to Bermuda. I would like to sail a direct course if possible. If I have to do 135 for 300 mi, and 135 again for another 300 mi, it is significant distance, though not sure of vmg. But if the wind is at 170, I am thinking 2 headsails are better than main and headsail at 170 for sure, and also better VMG than main and headsail at 135.. Also don't have to worry about accidental gybe if there is a small wind shift.

[Suijin]

Look at the polars for your boat (see diagram below). It shows that your VMG is best at around 145-150. You don't see race boats going wing and wing for a reason; it's slower, even though it would seem to be significantly more direct. True, running two big jibs is going to change the equation, but not enough to make it faster I'm pretty sure. You're not generating any apparent wind speed and your sails aren't acting as foils.

In addition, managing two jibs, even if one is poled out, is going to be more work than sailing your best VMG course and sail plan unless you your autopilot is steering to the wind.

If you want the best combination of speed and manageability I'd say your optimum sail plan is an asym kite and your main, holding a course of @ 150.

I've done the long distance DDW crossings where we poled out a big 150 and just tooled along. Adjust the pole length to the distance from the furled clew to the pole fixture at the mast and you have one sheet and the furler line to manage, and reducing your canvas to zero is a cinch. But that's weighting manageability and rig stress over squeezing out another VMG of speed, which is something you consider when you're 1500 miles from anywhere.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by dlymn

Running 150+ is always a fine art. On our monohull, we pole out our 150 genoa. The gennaker collapses close to DDW. The roller furler has 2 grooves and I do have a spare 150. I've never tried 2 headsails because I'm not sure how 2 halyards work at the top of the furler.
I would sail at 135 with main and genoa or gennaker. Then gybe to 135 when 5 miles off course (I do this at 1 mile but I'm a short run island hopper). Some people argue VMG is better this way

You don't use 2 halyards, you use one. Run your sails up in the double groove and ensure they are exactly the same size by adding a pennant of wire or rope to the top or bottom of the sail allowing them to attach to the same shackle at the furler.This allows you to furl the sail and drawing in both sails at the same time. You can adjust them 30 degrees either side of ddw and if the wind builds just furl them together, easy peasy and it does a good job. If you run a rig like this and you start to roll a lot then pull up a deep reefed mainsail and sheet it hard to the middle, that will help make it more comfy in the heavier going.

[robert sailor]

[QUOTE=Suijin;2298217]Look at the polars for your boat (see diagram below). It shows that your VMG is best at around 145-150. You don't see race boats going wing and wing for a reason; it's slower, even though it would seem to be significantly more direct. True, running two big jibs is going to change the equation, but not enough to make it faster I'm pretty sure. You're not generating any apparent wind speed and your sails aren't acting as foils.

In addition, managing two jibs, even if one is poled out, is going to be more work than sailing your best VMG course and sail plan unless you your autopilot is steering to the wind.

If you want the best combination of speed and manageability I'd say your optimum sail plan is an asym kite and your main, holding a course of @ 150.

I've done the long distance DDW crossings where we poled out a big 150 and just tooled along. Adjust the pole length to the distance from the furled clew to the pole fixture at the mast and you have one sheet and the furler line to manage, and reducing your canvas to zero is a cinch. But that's weighting manageability and rig stress over squeezing out another VMG of speed, which is something you consider when you're 1500 miles from anywhere.

[/QUOTE

Your spot on for race boats but most cruisers look for easy sailing when crossing oceans and if your in the trades sailing the hot angles is not as comfy as putting up lots of sail downwind and getting damn close to hull speed. Just my opinion of course, if I was racing I'd be flying the chute 24/7 and to tell the truth years ago I did that cruising but now only during the day. I'm one of the few guys that doesn't automatically reef at night as most cruisers do so why bother with sailing hot angles under working sails when cruising?]

[dlymn]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

You don't use 2 halyards, you use one. Run your sails up in the double groove and ensure they are exactly the same size by adding a pennant of wire or rope to the top or bottom of the sail allowing them to attach to the same shackle at the furler.This allows you to furl the sail and drawing in both sails at the same time. You can adjust them 30 degrees either side of ddw and if the wind builds just furl them together, easy peasy and it does a good job. If you run a rig like this and you start to roll a lot then pull up a deep reefed mainsail and sheet it hard to the middle, that will help make it more comfy in the heavier going.

Thanks for that. I might give it a try although I'm a little bit worried about sailing blind as I imagine it would be fairly difficult to see anything ahead with a couple of 150s blocking the view. That might be important for the coastal cruising that I do Even now with only one genny I've been heard to say " Where did that come from?"

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Your spot on for race boats but most cruisers look for easy sailing when crossing oceans and if your in the trades sailing the hot angles is not as comfy as putting up lots of sail downwind and getting damn close to hull speed. Just my opinion of course, if I was racing I'd be flying the chute 24/7 and to tell the truth years ago I did that cruising but now only during the day. I'm one of the few guys that doesn't automatically reef at night as most cruisers do so why bother with sailing hot angles under working sails when cruising?]

The OP stated he's primarily concerned with VMG, so I was pointing out that DDW is not going to be his fastest point of sail, no matter what the sail plan. Certainly if the sea state makes a hotter angle uncomfortable easing off is always an option at the expense of speed.

Also, Newport to Bermuda is a pretty short sail...3-5 days, and you have the gulf stream at it's most confused and unpredictable span and weather coming down off NE. There is some wisdom to "getting 'er done" even if it means a bit more work and discomfort.

I'm not disagreeing with you, as I'm a fan of throwing up canvas and going DDW on long passages where it makes sense but I do believe it is slower overall.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by dlymn

Thanks for that. I might give it a try although I'm a little bit worried about sailing blind as I imagine it would be fairly difficult to see anything ahead with a couple of 150s blocking the view. That might be important for the coastal cruising that I do Even now with only one genny I've been heard to say " Where did that come from?"

Your very welcome. Most cruisers don't use deck sweepers for that very reason so having a higher cut clew makes a ton of sense as you get good visibility plus you don't have to trim the sail as much.

[tomfl]

Just some random observations.

One issue with general guidelines for sailing down wind is sea state is often assumed to be constant. Even in low winds, and I have seen this in less than five knots of true wind and less than two foot seas, the boat will speed up surfing down the face of a wave and slow down going up the back of a wave. The result can be excessive stress as the sheets go slack and then slam tight. If there is even a slight difference between the wind direction and wave direction the surfing can be a lot longer than one would expect. Also keep in mind that as wave height increases and the boat goes into the trough between the waves the true wind speed for the lower portion of the sail will drop; possibly to zero.

Bottom line is a lot can go wrong sailing dead down, or close to it, even if you are running under a storm jib and nothing else.

As others posted earlier race boats don't sail wing on wing because VMG is better if you fall off some. This is not only true for monohulls but even more so for multihulls. So not only is sailing easier if you avoid sailing dead down wind you will get there faster as well.

There are some new head sails like the parasailor that some folks claim minimize a lot of the problems; but they seem to cost big bucks.

I am mostly a single hander and have a Seawind with a bow sprit I fly a screecher from and a self tacking working jib. On occasion I do sail it wing on wing; but only in light airs. On one trip I had a couple aboard who had no experience sailing. We were making a short run from the outer reef to the harbor and I just used the screecher and working jib since raising the main is a lot harder than just unfurrering the two head sails. I did not expect to sail wing on wing but the conditions kinda forced me to do so. We could see the first red marker to the channel and when we sailed towards it wing on wing was the only way to do it. I suspect this was somewhat due to the screecher being much larger than the working jib.

In any case I do thing under some conditions sailing wing on wing is a good idea, but they are very uncommon. As a rule I would not try to sail wing on wing.

YMMV

[django37]

We always have the main up and use spinnaker pole (have 2 of different lengths). Basicly we go downwind at TWA 165 - 170 dgr. (always autopilot) Preventer on main is set hard, head sail is either big masthead spi, smaller heavy weather spi or gennaker poled to windward and 2/3 genoa to leward

[thinwater]

Wing and wing (main and genoa) should work perfectly well with no special rigging other than a preventer on the main and a down haul on the genoa sheet. Just trim and put it on AP. I do this all the time. In this case it was blowing ~ 20 knots so I had a reef in the main, full genoa. With this rig I could leave a glass on the table. Power reaching would have been fun but not as comfortable. As I recall, I was splicing something up a the time and wanted smooth.



As for speed, the polars generally don't show this rig. In fact, it is considerably faster than trying to reach deep unless you put the chute up. In a breeze it is also MUCH smoother DDW than reaching for VMG. The bump at the bottom is wing-and-wing; not as fast in absolute terms, but for my boat, better VMG DDW.

The chute is faster, but reaching downwind in 20 true is a handful.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

You don't use 2 halyards, you use one. Run your sails up in the double groove and ensure they are exactly the same size by adding a pennant of wire or rope to the top or bottom of the sail allowing them to attach to the same shackle at the furler.This allows you to furl the sail and drawing in both sails at the same time. You can adjust them 30 degrees either side of ddw and if the wind builds just furl them together, easy peasy and it does a good job. If you run a rig like this and you start to roll a lot then pull up a deep reefed mainsail and sheet it hard to the middle, that will help make it more comfy in the heavier going.

Thx Robert, that was exactly what I meant but you put it in much better way..

Cheers

Yeloya