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Old 19-01-2008, 09:51   #46
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I have been in 40+ knots with higher gusts/15 foot seas a few times last year in the Greek Islands and it was nice cruising 13+ knots the boat was very happy and stable.

Here is a video of it before it really picked up , this is around around 30 knots and 8 foot seas. Your have to wait a 2 min to get to the part im talking about , "Tom" is giddy because hes never had such an exiciting sail !
sailing Video's
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Old 19-01-2008, 10:16   #47
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Thanks for the replies so far. I am comparing a 1987 Gulfstar Hirsh 45' monohull with a 1976 Prout Snowgoose (36) or 30 foot Iroquois.
Ah.............

I'd select the Gulfstar for bluewater cruising.

JMHO

Although many have successfully bluewater cruised on smaller cats, I would recommend nothing smaller than 38' and twin engines for starters.

Dave
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Old 19-01-2008, 10:46   #48
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Ah.............

I'd select the Gulfstar for bluewater cruising.

JMHO

Although many have successfully bluewater cruised on smaller cats, I would recommend nothing smaller than 38' and twin engines for starters.

Dave
Uh oh, Dave!! I alreayd "unselected" the Gulfstar. Sold her in November!

She was too expensive for us (big loan).

I still don't see the big deal about twin engines... what do I need them for when I'm not docking?
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Old 19-01-2008, 11:00   #49
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Whimsical,

I think this is the video you are referring to:

Warp Speed

My wife, Donna, is doing emails as we run south to the Canaries before winds of 40 knots with higher gusts. It was a bouncy ride, but you can also see that the captain got his sleep lying on cushions in the salon.
Dave, I love your website and videos.
When do you think you will have the DVD available for sale?
I am waiting patiently.

Jeff
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Old 19-01-2008, 13:53   #50
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Yes... yes, another soul corrupted and brought to the dark side. Is this the same 72 Prout that Coolchange listed for sale on another thread? While the two inboard option is best I would not consider it a deal breaker not to have this. After all, most of us get by on one engine, some with none. IMO way too much emphasis is placed on motoring and systems redundancy. If I could get in and out of tight situations with my 40 ft tri with a small single engine on the East Coast and Great Lakes you can mange to do the same with a cat. Sometimes it takes patience and ingenuity but you will be a better sailor for it. At least you will have a steerable outboard and you could always rig up two outboards. I have seen this many times. The weight savings will help with the whole payload issue.
Don't expect sizzling performance from an old Prout but you should at least perform as well as a similar size mono and you will have a more comfortable liveabord home.
Check out this site not so much for the boat for sale but the review of the Snowgoose at the bottom half of the page by Charles Kanter.

Prout Snowgoose 35 CHEFREN
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Old 19-01-2008, 14:26   #51
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I have been sailing/living on board now for quit some time on my own Cat and previously on another cat. I currently am on a simple little 30 Gem.
What was the other cat?

Do you find the single engine like a monohull in docking experiences?

I have heard it is worse or the same. All I have is mono experience.

Thanks.

OT - PS. How was the passage back to KW?
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Old 19-01-2008, 15:05   #52
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Dave, I love your website and videos.
When do you think you will have the DVD available for sale?
I am waiting patiently.

Jeff
My son, David, has done all of the editing into a final cut that is 1 hour twenty minutes long. I just saw the final cut last week. He will be putting the voice overs on it ASAP, and then it will be almost ready. He constructed the animations and they are looking good. The final step is writing the music and performing it on drums, synthsizer, guitar etc. He is a musician, and so the music part is his favorite part of the project. He also has four or five special features that he will put in if there is room on the DVD. He is learning a great deal by doing this project. I congratulate him what he has accomplished. Hopefully, he will have it ready to go in the next six or eight weeks.
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Old 19-01-2008, 15:18   #53
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Drifting the thread a little, what are the conditions that can cause capsize? Is it burying the bow or something? I'm not experienced yet on the multis. Can I simply "get the feel" after like 20 years of sailing on monos?
Sean, on a boat like a Prout, the conditions that might cause capsize would be extreme to terrifying. It won't be a matter of you not having aquired "feel". It would take a major storm and what would be survival conditions for any similar sized boat.

There's a story that as a publicity stunt, and to quell the old "cats always capsize" argument, Prout offered to refund the purchase price to anyone who managed to capsize one of their boats. It was never claimed.

As I said before, I've read that more Prouts have circumnavigated than any other cat.

Your comfort at anchor will, as a rule, be far better than a similar size, or even considerably bigger mono. Pitching is mainly a factor of length - a 37 foot cat is going to pitch about the same as a 37 foot mono. But the eternal rolling at anchor, in even the tiniest cross swell - well that will be a distant memory.

In your budget, and for your plans, a Prout seems like a good choice. You could also look out for Wharram designed boats. You'll probably get a bigger (well, longer) boat for the same money, and they have good records for ocean crossings too. They are pretty much all owner built, which IMHO is a good thing - I believe a person building a boat for himself and his family will generally take more care than someone who is just working at a (low paid) job.
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Old 19-01-2008, 15:24   #54
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Do you find the single engine like a monohull in docking experiences? I have heard it is worse or the same. All I have is mono experience.?
I've came into the dock on one engine once. I got blown all over the place. Cats have a lot of windage and beam on the wind at slow speeds although doable, is definately a challenge.
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Old 19-01-2008, 15:24   #55
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I still don't see the big deal about twin engines... what do I need them for when I'm not docking?
The two engines are a big help when cruising. We usually run only one engine at a time when we are moving the boat, and we use the second one when maneuvering in close quarters.

If we are motoring for long periods, we will use the starboard engine for twelve hours and then the port engine for twelve hours. We can check the oil on the unused engine before starting up. When a person is asleep in the starboard aft cabin, we use the port engine. When someone is sleeping in the port aft cabin, we use the starboard engine. That way the crew doesn't have to listen to an engine running under their bunk while they are trying to sleep. And we also don't have to worry about carbon monoxide getting into a cabin of a sleeping person.

Twin engines also mean that you have two separte fuel systems, and if there is a problem with one fuel tank, you have a completely separate fuel system to run the other engine.

When we were getting ready to cross the Singapore Straits in a busy shipping lane, we had to shut down one engine because the raw water strainer was clogged. Because we had a second engine running, we had no problem.

Similarly, when we sailed through dangerous places, like narrow reef entrances, we always ran both engines as an insurance policy.

We had alternator failures three times in eleven years, and many times we lost an alternator belt as well. Since we had two engines, an alternator problem never was a problem for us since we had a second alternator ready when we needed it. All we had to do was start up the other engine.

If you ever lose steerage on your yacht from loss of a rudder or steering system, you can still steer your boat using the engines to bring the boat about for tacking without rudders, and you can bring it into port without rudders because you can steer with the two engines.

Finally, if you cruise in remote areas, having a "spare" engine means that you aren't in trouble if you lose one engine.

You can sail around the world on a catamaran without any engine at all. Just have an RIB with a big outboard, and you can move your cat using the RIB as a TUG.

When we cruised across the Med, we motored 2/3 of the way from Turkey to Gibraltar. Once we left the Greek Islands, there was hardly any wind at all. When we crossed the Atlantic, there was no wind for the first five days, and we had to motor. In all of these situations, there is great comfort in knowing that if one motor dies, there's a second one on line ready for action.

Two engines are an insurance policy and a convenience, but they are not a necessity.
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Old 19-01-2008, 16:05   #56
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Ahhhh.... now this makes sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to explain. So sitting on the mono side of the world still, I see that all the advantages of dual engines are indeed a new luxury of having 2 hulls to put them in. In fact, I've never had any of these backups or redundant engine systems, or the luxury of quieting down a berth to help someone sleep. Amazing... Never even considered these luxuries. I always figured the backup to my single engine (in a mono) were my sails.

So in that light, I'm quite comfortable with a single engine and sails as my redundant propulsion system. Also, I had definitely planned to nudge the cat into tight spots using the dinghy, as you suggest.

Thanks. I'm getting this thing. Can't see any reason not to.


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The two engines are a big help when cruising. We usually run only one engine at a time when we are moving the boat, and we use the second one when maneuvering in close quarters.

If we are motoring for long periods, we will use the starboard engine for twelve hours and then the port engine for twelve hours. We can check the oil on the unused engine before starting up. When a person is asleep in the starboard aft cabin, we use the port engine. When someone is sleeping in the port aft cabin, we use the starboard engine. That way the crew doesn't have to listen to an engine running under their bunk while they are trying to sleep. And we also don't have to worry about carbon monoxide getting into a cabin of a sleeping person.

Twin engines also mean that you have two separte fuel systems, and if there is a problem with one fuel tank, you have a completely separate fuel system to run the other engine.

When we were getting ready to cross the Singapore Straits in a busy shipping lane, we had to shut down one engine because the raw water strainer was clogged. Because we had a second engine running, we had no problem.

Similarly, when we sailed through dangerous places, like narrow reef entrances, we always ran both engines as an insurance policy.

We had alternator failures three times in eleven years, and many times we lost an alternator belt as well. Since we had two engines, an alternator problem never was a problem for us since we had a second alternator ready when we needed it. All we had to do was start up the other engine.

If you ever lose steerage on your yacht from loss of a rudder or steering system, you can still steer your boat using the engines to bring the boat about for tacking without rudders, and you can bring it into port without rudders because you can steer with the two engines.

Finally, if you cruise in remote areas, having a "spare" engine means that you aren't in trouble if you lose one engine.

You can sail around the world on a catamaran without any engine at all. Just have an RIB with a big outboard, and you can move your cat using the RIB as a TUG.

When we cruised across the Med, we motored 2/3 of the way from Turkey to Gibraltar. Once we left the Greek Islands, there was hardly any wind at all. When we crossed the Atlantic, there was no wind for the first five days, and we had to motor. In all of these situations, there is great comfort in knowing that if one motor dies, there's a second one on line ready for action.

Two engines are an insurance policy and a convenience, but they are not a necessity.
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Old 19-01-2008, 16:15   #57
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Thanks. I'm getting this thing. Can't see any reason not to.
I thought you were out of dough a couple months ago?
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Old 19-01-2008, 16:36   #58
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I thought you were out of dough a couple months ago?
More accurately... I had a HUGE mortgage a couple of months ago.
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Old 19-01-2008, 19:19   #59
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Buoyancy in the bows of catamarans

You always see plumb bows with narrow fore decks in catamarans, probably because performance-oriented designers want to both give maximum waterline length and minimize weight, but I have done something I haven't seen elsewhere-I have carried the flam (often miscalled flare-flam is a positive curve and flare is a negative curve,) often found amidships right fore and aft in my design. I used a plumb bow for maximum waterline length, but gave a fairly wide deck above it. This has the effect of giving a plumb bow much more buoyancy than they usually have, which should make it harder to submerge the lee bow if suddenly hit by a gust.

I don't think plumb bows are inherently low in buoyancy, because you can draw lines with a good overhang, then actually add to the buoyancy by pulling the waterline forward and creating a plumb bow in lines which are otherwise identical. See 65 Foot Sailing Catamaran Design by Tim Dunn .

(This forum only creates links only if www is used in a url, but my url actually does not have www. as a part of it. This is not a problem for web users normally, because recent generations of browsers will automatically add or subtract www. from a url as needed to find a working website. I have added a www. to my link to cater to the programming on this forum.)


"bouyancy in the bows is a critical factor and one which is antithetical to the currently popular plumb bows, seen on so many cats: front overhang creates an increase in volume in three dimensions upon being depressed. Other design features such as 'knuckles' in the forward topsides also operate so as to increase volume as the bows depress."
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Old 20-01-2008, 02:59   #60
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Hmmm... this post is some cause for concern. Thanks. I am indeed looking at the very same Prout you describe. Was it that the guy had the thing loaded down like crazy for the trip?

I mean what is the proper bridge deck clearance?

My worry was cats in general in heavy weather too. I've seen plenty of footage of monos in monster storms, but very few of cats. What happens to a boat with a high degree of initial stability in very rough, breaking seas? If you take, say a flat bottom skiff as a model for the cat, it wouldn't fare as well as a rowing dinghy. I woke up thinking about this this morning.

Does anyone have any idea what would happen to a 37' Snowgoose vs a 37' say... Tartan or something in identical storm conditions with breaking waves?

Is this a valid concern?

One thing I liked about our Hirsh Gulfstar 45 was the ability to sit there at anchor outside a harbor in 60mph winds with really steep, huge chop and be somewhat comfortable. It meant I didn't have to run for cover every time bad weather kicked up. I just sat there.

Will a 36' Snowgoose be able to take the seas like that?

I know with a mono it's relative to the displacement, since that's what keeps you steady when the conditions get rough at anchor. With a cat, you are puposefully building a boat with a light displacement, so will I get creamed every time the waters get rough and winds kick up to 60mph?

I do plan to be in multiple lattitudes. High lattitudes at first (North Atlantic, Bay of Fundy, etc... for several years. Later, we plan to head through the Caribbean and across the Pacific... eventually.

Old Prout's have been sailing the world very successfully for 40 years. There used to be a great magazine Prout News full of stories from owners about their voyages but, sadly, that disappeared with the Prout collapse. This magazine first got me interested in cats and it was always my intention to buy a Prout but, when the time came, they'd gone bust and Broadblue hadn't yet started so I bought a Privilege. Very glad I did but sad I didn't have the choice.

I believe there were something like 400 Snowgeese launched and not one has ever gone over. Structural failure is almost unheard of as they were very solidly built. Sadly one was abandoned on an Atlantic crossing in November after the rig came down and punched a hole in the hull but I suspect that it is probably still afloat and approaching the Caribbean around now!

I think they are an excellent buy. So they don't go that well to windward? So what? Who wants to go to windward on a cruise. The most important thing is they are relatively cheap, last for ever, will get you there eventually and you'll get your money back if you sell.
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