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Old 29-06-2015, 19:45   #106
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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Originally Posted by monte View Post
Your right BB, I don't know exactly what took place. Would you mind referencing some facts and I'll take a look?
I'm not sure about the innovation you're referring to but if it's a mast stepped further aft it's hardly innovation. Prouts have had a similar sailplane for 40 years and it's likely masts have been placed in every conceivable position, for/aft/off centre in that time as well. Engineering the support for the mast is pretty basic stuff.
As far as the L39, I don't know how they handled the compression from the mast, but being nautical engineers I expect they have enough nouse to figure that out as well without me questioning their methods. If they decided a steel beam is the best method I wouldn't presume to know better myself. As customers we buy a product fit for the purpose we require. If our requirement is maximum performance, minimum weight, high tech construction materials with an unlimited budget, our choice of boats is likely to be very different from cruising performance, industry standard materials on a limited budget.
Monte,

Send me a PM of what facts you'd consider definitive.

The innovation isn't the mast position, per se, but how several design issues related to the mast position are handled by a single, clever composite engineering solution WITHOUT high tech construction, undue complexity, and unlimited budget.

And so you'd be happy with cats with steel beams in them? Even a "budget" cat? Really? Would that be stainless steel so it won't rust over time, or mild steel? Or maybe they used aluminium, to save weight, but then the size goes up to give the same bending moment? Fair enough, if the response is "Who cares?"
I would say it raises more questions than it answers though.

But there are some who go to sea who actually do care about the materials and methods of building of a boat. Funnily enough, the rougher the conditions, the more it seems to matter.
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Old 29-06-2015, 20:39   #107
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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Monte,



Send me a PM of what facts you'd consider definitive.



The innovation isn't the mast position, per se, but how several design issues related to the mast position are handled by a single, clever composite engineering solution WITHOUT high tech construction, undue complexity, and unlimited budget.



And so you'd be happy with cats with steel beams in them? Even a "budget" cat? Really? Would that be stainless steel so it won't rust over time, or mild steel? Or maybe they used aluminium, to save weight, but then the size goes up to give the same bending moment? Fair enough, if the response is "Who cares?"

I would say it raises more questions than it answers though.



But there are some who go to sea who actually do care about the materials and methods of building of a boat. Funnily enough, the rougher the conditions, the more it seems to matter.

BB, any facts available to the forum or general public would be fine. Even heresay would help from an opinion, so feel free to share any relevant information.
As far as the engineering and construction methods of Lagoon or any major builder (or car manufacturer ) they have a financial interest in designing and building vessels fit for a purpose and ensuring the safety and seaworthiness of those vessels. We can only go on company history in performance and safety and overall customer satisfaction when making decisions to purchase a production boat (or car, or TV etc etc). I'm not sure why you are focused on the mast compression method when there are so many factors involved in yacht design and construction that we have to trust the manufacturers to build yachts fit for the intended purpose such as hull materials and layup, rig design, bulkhead placement etc. Personally I prefer buy a proven design to an early production hull number but I guess by now there are a couple of hundred L52s and L39s sailing and I haven't heard of any issues with hull integrity or rigging failure. I'd like to say the same about electronics and saildrives but I can't.
I did spend a few years building high performance offshore racing yachts in high tech materials, so I do have an interest in design and construction methods and materials. I trust my boat with my life and my loved ones lives every day so obviously trusting the construction quality is pretty important to me.
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Old 29-06-2015, 20:53   #108
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
When I was located at the visitors wharf in Noumea there were 17 monos. 16 of them had in mast furling - the main was battonless. It occurred to me that clearly there is a distinct advantage for the real cruiser here otherwise why would it be this way.

They do not give a sh$t about pointing - they just want to be safe.

Cats are a little different due to balance, but having just journeyed from NC to Vanuatu at 30+ knots in 4 m seas and having to reef the main twice I would seriously consider an in mast furling system should one present itself for cats in the future.

Further, >90 AWS, the main does not add any significant benefit compared to any one of my three headsails.

It all depends on your priorities - getting speed out of your boat or travelling comfortably and safely.
Thankyou.

What the one eyed racers don't get is that cruisers generally don't care about max speed.

We care about safety, durability, ease of use and good daily average runs and numerous other non competitive aspects of sailing.

I do care about good radio etiquette, knowing the rules of the road, technical skills and being bristol. I hate bodgy repairs, know it alls and uncared for boats.

We recently had a friend stay aboard for a few days. He was obsessed about helping us go faster. It took forever to convince him that we don't give a ****. We're constrained by the tide, wind direction and all the idiots that can't follow the rules of the road because they must heel more to go faster. We love the ocean and sailing. Our passion is for sailing and nature. Together it's nirvana.

I had my fill of racing in the motorsport industry and my wife spent 11 years sailing in the Australian Army interservice sailing team.



Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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Old 29-06-2015, 21:22   #109
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Mont

And so you'd be happy with cats with steel beams in them? Even a "budget" cat? Really? Would that be stainless steel so it won't rust over time, or mild steel? Or maybe they used aluminium, to save weight, but then the size goes up to give the same bending moment? Fair enough, if the response is "Who cares?"
I would say it raises more questions than it answers though.

But there are some who go to sea who actually do care about the materials and methods of building of a boat. Funnily enough, the rougher the conditions, the more it seems to matter.
Just so you know, old "used" aluminum is often better than new. It's called age hardning and it's often a good feature. So much so that they induce it in new production somehow.
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Old 29-06-2015, 22:08   #110
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
When I was located at the visitors wharf in Noumea there were 17 monos. 16 of them had in mast furling - the main was battonless. It occurred to me that clearly there is a distinct advantage for the real cruiser here otherwise why would it be this way.

They do not give a sh$t about pointing - they just want to be safe.

Cats are a little different due to balance, but having just journeyed from NC to Vanuatu at 30+ knots in 4 m seas and having to reef the main twice I would seriously consider an in mast furling system should one present itself for cats in the future.

Further, >90 AWS, the main does not add any significant benefit compared to any one of my three headsails.

It all depends on your priorities - getting speed out of your boat or travelling comfortably and safely.
Well, CW, that's one way to look at what you saw. Having spent some time in Noumea, and observed the folks who just hang out at the visitors pontoon, I'd say the "real cruisers" were either cruising around that delightful area or were out at anchor in B. de Moselle or B. de Orphelenat... not waiting there for you to count their furling mains! You might well find a smaller representation of furlers out there.

And I for one do give a **** about pointing, and have a normal, slightly roachy mainsail. I think my creds as a "real cruiser" are pretty well established.

There are for sure plenty of folks out cruising who fit your definition, but to say all others ain't "real" is a bit OTT. And having to reef twice between NC and Vanuatu... that seems pretty approachable to me. It is usually a two day passage from Havanah Pass, and reefing twice in two days doesn't seem so harsh.

You are correct that priorities are different for different folks, and some cruisers like to go as fast as their boats are able, considering the crews, routes, and winds available. We enjoy that aspect of sailing even though we are cruising.... really cruising!

Jim
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Old 29-06-2015, 22:14   #111
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Monte,

" BB, any facts available to the forum or general public would be fine. Even heresay would help from an opinion, so feel free to share any relevant information. "

Well, as I mentioned, there is publicly available information on the Chinese builder website, under their News tab and dated 2011-2-18 as per

FarnovaYachts Ltd. ŵͧ

, and this coincided with the construction period of the FreeFlow 52, re

FarnovaYachts Ltd. ŵͧ

and in the photo with VPLP is a very unhappy Danny McMillan who was Nathan Stanton's QA Manager on this project, and who arrived on-site to find VPLP examining the boat, with much excited discussion (in French) between them...

There is alot of other material not in my possession, but that I have seen.
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Old 29-06-2015, 22:26   #112
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Agree with Jim - if you only reefed twice in a 2 day passage you got off lightly - unless there was very steady conditions through out would be unusual .
I have always believed the main helps to some degree albeit to a lessening degree as you sail deeper and was a little surprised recently when sailing deep with a gennaker (160 awa) and struggling to keep the gennaker setting so we dropped the main and sailed gennaker alone- not only did our boat speed stay the same , we sailed even deeper touching 180 . Was an eye opener as coming from a racing background I always believed that there would be some benefit from the main..
That has changed my approach to sailing deep downwind from now.
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Old 29-06-2015, 23:33   #113
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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There are for sure plenty of folks out cruising who fit your definition, but to say all others ain't "real" is a bit OTT.
Hi Jim

Given that I made no such assertion I assume you have mixed me up with someone else. That would be silly as I would be referring to my own situation as not "real" as I do not have a furling main.

In fact the cruisers in question were only on the marina for a short time and then they moved on. Further, I was looking at others out in the bays etc.

My point, simply made, was that increasingly sailors are going for furling mains of whatever type, and this seems to be a definite and understandable trend backing up the point of the OP.
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Old 30-06-2015, 06:19   #114
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Thanks for links BB. I did read the news article and can understand why the QA manager might be disgruntled. The Chinese are masters at taking a design and knocking it off, rebadging it or counterfeiting it. I did t see any information that eludes to VPLP being there to examine other designs. More that the Chinese were wanting assistance to upgrade there techniques to be competitive in the world market.
I guess you have been taking with free flow and have some additional viewpoint, albeit one sided.
On a related note, most designs and design components aren't original ideas, they're compilations of previous ideas that work, and are refined over time. I often see a good idea and incorporate it in my designs. Sometimes deliberately and sometimes subconsciously. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear of other designers doing the same
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Old 30-06-2015, 11:34   #115
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Failure to Receive Credit

Bigbeakie and others.
What do they say,....imitation is the greatest form of flattery. That's all well and good at times, but when there is NOT proper recognition of the prior work one is gathering ideas from,...that is when I get upset.

Several examples:
1) This guy was developing a mast aft rig for his small trimaran. Most of his website has been taken down long ago, but here is one page that remains up (don't know why?)
Aft Mast Sail Power Calculator
If you scroll down to the section entitled
An Aft Mast Cutter/Ketch Rig
you will find that it is almost a word-for-word copy of a page on my website.
Yet the fellow NEVER gave me ANY recognition for having anything to do with the concept ....and not even a weblink.
That just was not fairplay.

2) This fellow from RB Sailing in Thailand starting building two aftmast catamarans in Thailand when customers of his came asking about my rig design. He did acknowledge my development of the idea, but when he had a friend of his post his new promotion on the internet, there was no acknowledgement of my existence in the equation.
HK40' - Power Sailing Catamaran.

And when that same friend of his went about modifying the Wikipedia page on "mast aft", there was very little reference to my work, and much more emphasis on his work with photos of his boat(s)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mast_aft_rig

I was not very happy with either of these situations. At the very least I would have liked to have received some recognition.

Long ago I considered seeking a patent for this aft-mast ketch design, but I summarily decided it would be much better left as 'open technology' that could be improved in subsequent iterations. Besides it would likely never be produced in great enough numbers to make a patent pay off. So I'm surprised when anyone else speaks of a patent with reference to this concept.

Remember I did start working on this idea in 1972, and had at least 3-4 published articles by 1974
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Old 30-06-2015, 13:16   #116
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Re: Don't use the Main?

I have switched to paraw with a boom crutch that always supports the 70 ft long boom. I designed the crutch so it pivots with the boom.
Reliefing is just letting out some line to drop the 50 ft lifting spar.
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Old 30-06-2015, 14:23   #117
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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Thanks for links BB. I did read the news article and can understand why the QA manager might be disgruntled. The Chinese are masters at taking a design and knocking it off, rebadging it or counterfeiting it. I did t see any information that eludes to VPLP being there to examine other designs. More that the Chinese were wanting assistance to upgrade there techniques to be competitive in the world market.
I guess you have been taking with free flow and have some additional viewpoint, albeit one sided.
On a related note, most designs and design components aren't original ideas, they're compilations of previous ideas that work, and are refined over time. I often see a good idea and incorporate it in my designs. Sometimes deliberately and sometimes subconsciously. It wouldn't surprise me at all to hear of other designers doing the same
Oh yeah, of course. VPLP were just there just to assist the Chinese in their striving to produce excellent quality boats. What nice fellows they are. Jeez, Monte...how about some critical thinking?
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Old 30-06-2015, 15:16   #118
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Hi Jim

Given that I made no such assertion I assume you have mixed me up with someone else. That would be silly as I would be referring to my own situation as not "real" as I do not have a furling main.

In fact the cruisers in question were only on the marina for a short time and then they moved on. Further, I was looking at others out in the bays etc.

My point, simply made, was that increasingly sailors are going for furling mains of whatever type, and this seems to be a definite and understandable trend backing up the point of the OP.
OK CW, I can live with that, but this is the sentence that I was referring to:

Quote:
It occurred to me that clearly there is a distinct advantage for the real cruiser here otherwise why would it be this way.
At any rate, yes, furling mains have become popular, but not all cruisers are willing to take the performance hit that they entail, nor are they happy with the added complexity.


With any luck we will ourselves be in New Cal by August, and I will do a mainsail count too. I won't be surprised if your statistics are repeated!

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 30-06-2015, 16:09   #119
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Jim


Point taken. By "real cruiser" I meant "blue water cruiser". The "real" was in no way related to the type of kit on the boat.


I am in Port Vila Harbour now. Looking around about half have in mast furling mains. It also surprises me how many motorised headsail furlers there are.
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Old 30-06-2015, 18:24   #120
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Victor Tchetchet's Rig

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Hi BigBeakie,

I can't find either of the 'illustrations' of either Tchetchet's mastaft catamaran experiement, nor Smith's cutter. I guess I have lost them over the years of moving around the world, as they were non-digital formats (just printed matter) when I began working on the aftmast idea in 1972,...wow...43 years ago.
Wow, I just went back thru an old external harddrive I had and found a photo of Victor's rig, and another concept one published in AYRS that was likely inspired by his.
Click image for larger version

Name:	Victor Tchetchet mast aft.jpg
Views:	95
Size:	73.3 KB
ID:	104463
Click image for larger version

Name:	MastAft inspired rig, Victor Tchetchet AYRS.jpg
Views:	91
Size:	50.7 KB
ID:	104464

I think my version of the rig is a lot more inspiring
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