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Old 22-01-2014, 13:43   #46
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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Originally Posted by ozskipper View Post
I have two observations. 1. That cruising sailors always want to go downwind. 2. that they are primarily lazy when it comes to performance. So, yes a smaller main is sensible for cruising boat. If you go to any popular cruising destination you will see umpteen boats cruising with only a headsail up. Rightly or wrongly, they have less strings to pull and less work to do. This decreases the dangers of spilling ones beer, which is a concern to yachtsmen worldwide of course.
Sailing with my father-in-law out of Marina Del Rey for his first time on this boat.
Tom "The jib tell tales are flapping a little."
Me "I know."
Tom "Aren't you going to trim the sail so we can go a little faster?"
Me "No."
Tom "Why not?"
Me "Because I'm comfortable and warm."
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Old 22-01-2014, 17:13   #47
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Re: Don't use the Main?

My previous boat was a Broadblue 46 with an aft stepped mast, solent rig plus an inner self tacking storm staysail... a total of 3 head sails, all roller furled.

For sure it was no Gunboat. But it sailed very well and there were so many possible sail combinations to suit every situation that I called it a virtual ketch and all were easy to set - balancing the sails was a doddle. If I were to return to a multihull, I would seek out a similar sail plan.

Interestingly, see Chris White's latest offering is devoid of a mast mounted main sail.

None of the above should be misconstrued as defending the Lagoon. Unquestionably, the Lagoon is a very successful design - it meets certain specific "needs". Deride them as we may, they nevertheless sell hundreds of Lagoons every year. On those figures, it would seem not everyone wants to live aboard and go cruising on a foiling AC72.
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Old 22-01-2014, 20:09   #48
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sww914 View Post
Sailing with my father-in-law out of Marina Del Rey for his first time on this boat.
Tom "The jib tell tales are flapping a little."
Me "I know."
Tom "Aren't you going to trim the sail so we can go a little faster?"
Me "No."
Tom "Why not?"
Me "Because I'm comfortable and warm."
If you were on a well designed cat, you could have trimmed and remained comfortable and warm
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Old 23-01-2014, 04:15   #49
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sww914 View Post
Sailing with my father-in-law out of Marina Del Rey for his first time on this boat.
Tom "The jib tell tales are flapping a little."
Me "I know."
Tom "Aren't you going to trim the sail so we can go a little faster?"
Me "No."
Tom "Why not?"
Me "Because I'm comfortable and warm."
My Dad "trim the sail that is flapping"

Me "Why?"

My Dad "because a poorly trimmed sail wears out faster than a well trimmed one, and I am paying for it"

Me "yes sir"
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Old 23-01-2014, 05:22   #50
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Re: Don't use the Main?

I agree. It's good to think about these things. The path of a boat through water is the complex result of many variables. When we set a course we strive to balance our rigs to minimize weather helm and eliminate lee helm by sail manipulation with the certain conviction that if the rudder(s) is/are markedly deviated for the sake of maintaining course, our speed will suffer from the parasitic drag, and steering will be more ergonomically fatiguing.
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Old 15-06-2015, 09:32   #51
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Mainless Rig, all roller furling

Just found this subject again, and was surprised that no one replied in reference to my posting #45 ??

So I thought I might submit a copy of an older posting I had made on another subject thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by beiland
You know I can still imagine sailing a big 65-foot catamaran with this rig right off the mooring, and back to the mooring, without the engine, by myself, with so little effort that I might take it out having only a few spare hours to kill or for a simple daysail.

And I would rig mine with tiller steering rather than a wheel, and get a really good balanced helm. I wouldn’t have to uncover any sails, nor recover them when I returned to port. I would be less concerned with reefing by myself if the wind were to really come up,...everything roller furls up. If I were short-handed at sea, I would have many of the benefits of a ketch rig, without the necessity of slab reefing the main and mizzen sails of the traditional ketch rig.

That about sums it up. I would like a 65 foot cat that I could take sailing by myself, and that might even be easier than rigging up a trailered beach cat.

Try hoisting a full batten mainsail on a 65 footer by yourself, or even a 40 footer. Most folks over 50 will have second thoughts, or will just unfurl the jib and forget about hoisting the MAINsail.

I'm 65 (now 72), and I could sail this 65 foot cat by myself with this aft mast rig. And with the balance and low power afforded by the smaller 'mainstaysail' I could sail this vessel right off the mooring, or maybe right off a side-to dock slip.

Many people really ‘connect’ with my mastaft rig suggestions. I continuously get email messages complimenting me on this idea. They mostly like the potential ease of use, and they dislike big mainsails!!

You see it’s not JUST an emotional involvement, but rather a real feeling that cruising folks will enjoy this rig.

I also believe a few fisherman may be eventually attracted to this concept of ‘gamefishing under sail’, particularly as the fuel prices continue to rise. And these powerboat guys need a rig that operates as easily as ‘Venetian blinds’. They want it dead simple. I’ve received a few inquiries that have me convinced that my rig is not too difficult for them to understand. Gamefishing for Sail, Under Sail (and power).

Here's a challenge Xperson:..... La Mans start. I'll be out sailing before you get the covers off your mainsail, and when we return for the day, I'll be at the bar with a margarita watching you put away your vessel for the day.
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Old 15-06-2015, 21:41   #52
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Brian,

Looking at your drawings and model, I'm wondering (as I did with the Lagoon 39, and still don't have an answer) how you support the mast compression forces. It appears your mast base is not on the cockpit bulkhead but slightly aft of it. Since the mast down force can be up to twice (or more) the boat displacement, how are you handling that point load???

On another matter re sport fishing from a cat, I had an interesting conversation up in Cairns with a skipper of a game fishing boat who told me he tried raising marlin ( big ones) on a sailing cat, but it was unsuccessful. He said the engine noise is what brings the big marlin up to have a look, then they see the spread.
Makes sense.
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Old 15-06-2015, 22:03   #53
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Re: Don't use the Main?

If you want easy the gaff schooner rig using modern light materials would give a low center of gravity simple rigging and a fair spread of sail easy to raise and lower. With lazy jacks and jiffy reefing not to hard to manage. Since big cruising cats tend to sail off the wind a gaff schooner would be just fine and the sails would always come down fast and easy for quick change to motor mode or motor sailing with a reduced sail area jib and fore sail. To keep the weight down lots of carbon fiber in the rig.
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Old 15-06-2015, 22:24   #54
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Brian,

Looking at your drawings and model, I'm wondering (as I did with the Lagoon 39, and still don't have an answer) how you support the mast compression forces. It appears your mast base is not on the cockpit bulkhead but slightly aft of it. Since the mast down force can be up to twice (or more) the boat displacement, how are you handling that point load???

On another matter re sport fishing from a cat, I had an interesting conversation up in Cairns with a skipper of a game fishing boat who told me he tried raising marlin ( big ones) on a sailing cat, but it was unsuccessful. He said the engine noise is what brings the big marlin up to have a look, then they see the spread.
Makes sense.
Looks as if he is using the cockpit/saloon bulkhead.

cheers
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Old 15-06-2015, 22:51   #55
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Looks as if he is using the cockpit/saloon bulkhead.

cheers
But on profile view, it appears behind the cockpit/saloon bulkhead. Even if it was on the bulkhead, the saloon door opening appears to be in the center, so it would be a challenge to provide enough support with just the bimini top, I would have thought.

To give you an idea, the Broadblue Rapier supports their mast with 1x 250mm (vertical) composite beam and 1x 300mm (vertical) composite beam, all properly engineered, layered, and constructed to support the mast loads.

If anyone know how Lagoon do it, I'm all ears
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Old 16-06-2015, 00:54   #56
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Hi
The following [article][http://www.actunautique.com/article-...11934803.html] says:

"On a trouvé de nouvelles solutions, avec une épontille en acier qui traverse le milieu du carré, qui reprend toute la structure du bateau. En conséquence de quoi, le cloison de mât habituelle n'a plus la côté structurel qu'elle avait"

We found new solutions with a steel stanchion which goes through the middle of the boat and "re-takes" ( better word required...) the entire structure of the boat. As a consequence, the usual bulkhead below the mast loses its previous structural role...

They also note that the wider angle of the front stay ( due to the mast being further back) means that mast compression is less.

Cheers
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Old 16-06-2015, 01:48   #57
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kowloon Breeze View Post
Hi
The following [article][http://www.actunautique.com/article-...11934803.html] says:

"On a trouvé de nouvelles solutions, avec une épontille en acier qui traverse le milieu du carré, qui reprend toute la structure du bateau. En conséquence de quoi, le cloison de mât habituelle n'a plus la côté structurel qu'elle avait"

We found new solutions with a steel stanchion which goes through the middle of the boat and "re-takes" ( better word required...) the entire structure of the boat. As a consequence, the usual bulkhead below the mast loses its previous structural role...

They also note that the wider angle of the front stay ( due to the mast being further back) means that mast compression is less.

Cheers
KB



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Hi Kowloon,

Great find! I laughed when someone suggested jokingly maybe Lagoon used a steel I-beam, but holy smokes, your reference indicates maybe they did!!!

I know there is some pretty questionable composite engineering around, but that takes the cake
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Old 16-06-2015, 08:56   #58
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Fishy Noise :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
On another matter re sport fishing from a cat, I had an interesting conversation up in Cairns with a skipper of a game fishing boat who told me he tried raising marlin ( big ones) on a sailing cat, but it was unsuccessful. He said the engine noise is what brings the big marlin up to have a look, then they see the spread.
Makes sense.
Let me answer this one first. Lots of contentious answers to that one. First off I would probable agree that the 'surface noise' could likely be the initial attractant, but then lots of guys claim it is only certain boats that produce a sound that attracts them,...to that I say BS.

You might have a look thru this subject thread:
Gamefishing for Sail Under Sail (and power) | YachtForums: The World’s Largest Yachting Community
If I remember correctly there are a few experienced fishermen that question this 'sound stuff'.
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Old 16-06-2015, 09:47   #59
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Mast Step

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie View Post
Brian,

Looking at your drawings and model, I'm wondering (as I did with the Lagoon 39, and still don't have an answer) how you support the mast compression forces. It appears your mast base is not on the cockpit bulkhead but slightly aft of it. Since the mast down force can be up to twice (or more) the boat displacement, how are you handling that point load???
If you go to this page of my website you will find a few drawings that depict a large trapezoidal shape object beneath the mast tube that is stepped at cabintop level in a manner that does not NOT impart bending loads to the mast step, nor the bulkhead. The 'mast step' spreads it loads out onto the cabin floor which in turn is reinforced by the wave-splitting structure running fore-to-aft. It is also attached to the rear bulkhead that is both substantial in itself and its anchorage in the vessel. The cabin door is off-center.
Gamefishing Design - a 65' mast-aft sailing catamaran.
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Take note that the vertical backstay (the mizzen is mounted on) is very tight to help maintain forestay tensions. Interestingly it pulls up on the mast step structure while the mast pushes down.






Second example.
There was a really nice kit-based catamaran that was being worked up over there in Aus, the Solitary island 12M. I was looking to make available a mast-aft option for it. Here is one posting I made that showed a few mods I had in mind initially:
Aftmast rigs??? - Page 33 - Boat Design Forums

I was suggesting an 'X' structure built into the aft bulkhead of the cabin to support the mast compression loads. I've got a few of those sketches around here somewhere....
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Old 16-06-2015, 09:53   #60
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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Looks as if he is using the cockpit/saloon bulkhead.

cheers
the bulkhead, the cabin floor, AND a carbon-tow in the lower edge of the wave splitter plate
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