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Old 25-11-2013, 15:59   #31
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Re: Don't use the Main?

The sails are actually steering the boat especially on a lighter weight catamaran. The rudders are just there for trim.

To get the maximum efficiency from your sails, you need to think in these terms otherwise you are wasting energy.

If you don't believe this go out when it's blowing say 25 knots. Using the main only, center it. After the boat turns into the wind, try and go downwind without loosening the main sheet.
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Old 25-11-2013, 16:41   #32
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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
This cannot be correct. It just cannot be. It is so wrong that I refuse to google it. I mean, this is the same sail area and displacement as a Formosa 41! A Formosa 41! If by some unholy alliance of French boat builders and Canadian lead miners this turns out to be actually true, then I propose that we no longer refer to this boat as a "multihull". It should now be referred to as a "twin monohull". I would even propose that it not be referred to as a sailboat, since I suspect that CF member "MarkPierce"'s Coot could handily out-sail it with his engine in reverse. And it should be put far ahead of Hunters, CQR anchors, Bondo repair jobs and Xantrex products when it comes time on CF for heaping derision on something. Mark
I avoided Google per your sensitivities. But the Lagoon web site confirmed said dreaded statistics... It's twue! It's twue!
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Old 25-11-2013, 17:13   #33
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Re: Don't use the Main?

it is really amazing seeing how the arabs with dhow rigged lanteen sails discovered half the world with what is basically just a big genoa....................must have been really good sailors,with all those reef entrances they had to tack up on the african and indian coasts
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Old 26-11-2013, 04:13   #34
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Re: Don't use the Main?

news reports said they suffered a lot of collateral damage in their discoveries.
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Old 26-11-2013, 05:33   #35
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Forgetting about Sail magazines ludicrous comment for a moment, I still believe that there is much to commend a mast-aft arrangement for cruising - so long as the manufacturer uses a cutter, rather than a sloop rig. If Lagoon had gone to a cutter rig, they would have not only increased sail area, but had a dedicated staysail/storm jib available in heavy conditions. Frankly, I love my cutter rig with furling on both the headsail and staysail - it enables me to deploy a properly shaped, properly made staysail/storm jib in heavy weather without the need to go to the foredeck. It also moves the Ce of the storm jib both down and in - precisely where it should be. Finally, the staysail increases sail area without raising the height of the mast or requiring a flat-top, or large roach mainsail which is more difficult to handle, and which is less than an ideal shape when heavily reefed.

By way of comparison, my Solaris Sunstream 40 has 865 feet of overall sail area with 16,500 lbs of displacement. Hardly a performance boat, but nevertheless a much better SA/D ratio than the new Lagoon. I suspect that the new rig on the 39 will be the darling of the charter crowd, but as has been pointed out, it is has no advantages other than ease of use for lazy charter sailors.

Brad
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Old 27-11-2013, 19:00   #36
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
it is really amazing seeing how the arabs with dhow rigged lanteen sails discovered half the world with what is basically just a big genoa....................must have been really good sailors,with all those reef entrances they had to tack up on the african and indian coasts
Atoll

Lot of info here on the modern adoption of a crab claw sail on a large trimaran.

Naked mast myth - Buff performance with no lee side!
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Old 29-11-2013, 00:19   #37
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Reading the HOT BuOYS story certainly rings some bells, although not so dramatically ...

It might be, that my lack of sympathy for large mainsails results from previous 9 months sailing on a Privilege 615 (30m mast height, 130sqm mainsail area).

The earlier quoted long trip on a BB385 aft rig was indeed much more relaxing...

The boat was ordered and built specifically for extended short-crew sailing. The mainsail was further reduced from original design, making a straight leech line, no battens and no reefing points. Flat as a sheet of plywood. Little over 20sqm.

At times, when anchoring just overnight or for a couple of hours, waiting for the turn of the tide in light winds, we kept the main up, just sheeting it tightly amidships.

Sometimes, when we were caught with the main up, and the wind rose too much, we would just leave the main, avoiding the risk of taking it down, and roll up the genoa to a very small size. The flat 20sqm sail did not put much strain on the boat, and the autopilot could usually handle it.

Not too often, but on occassions we were flying twin genoas. One on the fixed furler stay, other on a temporary stay - the spinnaker hallyard fixed to an eye on the foredeck. A spinnaker pole on one side, the other sheet through a block on end of the main boom swung out (sail down). Solars fully in the sun.
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Old 29-11-2013, 12:56   #38
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
The sails are actually steering the boat especially on a lighter weight catamaran. The rudders are just there for trim.

To get the maximum efficiency from your sails, you need to think in these terms otherwise you are wasting energy.

If you don't believe this go out when it's blowing say 25 knots. Using the main only, center it. After the boat turns into the wind, try and go downwind without loosening the main sheet.
Worth quoting completely.

I often am able to trim my sails and stay on course with no AP (not to say the AP is not worth its weight in gold). Not just in my boat but in all of my Dad's boats since the 1950s when I started sailing. I would also point out that I have been on some boats that are not able to stay on course no matter how you trim the sails.

I guess it would be possible to design a boat with huge head sails and a tiny main so it could be balanced if you really wanted to do so. But as others have pointed out it is normally easier to deal with sails closer to the cockpit, which is normally toward the stern of the boat as opposed to head sails which are at the bow.
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Old 19-01-2014, 17:27   #39
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Re: Don't use the Main?

+1 for the "aft mast" rig.

Mast is at the strongest part of the boat, instead of inside/over the salon. All lines lead right next to the pilot, no turning blocks.

A furling foresail can't mess up that much, you can always replace it. A furling main that fouls can end your trip.

With all of those advantages, what's wrong with making the hardest to handle sail a little easier to handle? It's a lot easier to release a sheet than to reef in a sudden squall.

If it's all about being manly enough to handle your toughest sail, why not fly your spinnaker all the time? Even upwind, if you're really that good.

While I'm not sure if the aft mast design originated with Prout, AFAIK more cats of that brand have circumnavigated than any other.

And according to the racers I've crewed for on monos, the jib drives the boat.
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Old 19-01-2014, 20:04   #40
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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Forgetting about Sail magazines ludicrous comment for a moment, I still believe that there is much to commend a mast-aft arrangement for cruising - so long as the manufacturer uses a cutter, rather than a sloop rig. If Lagoon had gone to a cutter rig, they would have not only increased sail area, but had a dedicated staysail/storm jib available in heavy conditions. Frankly, I love my cutter rig with furling on both the headsail and staysail - it enables me to deploy a properly shaped, properly made staysail/storm jib in heavy weather without the need to go to the foredeck. It also moves the Ce of the storm jib both down and in - precisely where it should be. Finally, the staysail increases sail area without raising the height of the mast or requiring a flat-top, or large roach mainsail which is more difficult to handle, and which is less than an ideal shape when heavily reefed. By way of comparison, my Solaris Sunstream 40 has 865 feet of overall sail area with 16,500 lbs of displacement. Hardly a performance boat, but nevertheless a much better SA/D ratio than the new Lagoon. I suspect that the new rig on the 39 will be the darling of the charter crowd, but as has been pointed out, it is has no advantages other than ease of use for lazy charter sailors. Brad
Absolutely agree. Our Chamberlin 45 has a cutter rig with the mast further aft than most. Wouldn't be without it. Easy fast (enough for us as cruisers) safe sailing.
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Old 19-01-2014, 20:38   #41
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Re: Don't use the main?

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Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
You really need the main sail and jib to give the catamaran balance and performance.
We always use both sails. We have one line jiffy reefing on the main sail that allows me to reef single handed. I have no power winches and find itís no problem to hank up the full batten main sail by hand.

Without one line jiffy reefing I may have hesitated in the past to use the main sail in 30+ knots.

Reefing early is the key to managing large catamaran main sails.

Reefing from the security and comfort of the cock pit makes fast sailing in strong winds a pleasure.

If you take the time to setup your catamaran to work for you, than you will truly enjoy the fast ride it will give you.
Well said and almost every word applies to my fat pig of a mono, too.
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Old 19-01-2014, 21:56   #42
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Re: Don't use the Main?

I have two observations. 1. That cruising sailors always want to go downwind. 2. that they are primarily lazy when it comes to performance. So, yes a smaller main is sensible for cruising boat. If you go to any popular cruising destination you will see umpteen boats cruising with only a headsail up. Rightly or wrongly, they have less strings to pull and less work to do. This decreases the dangers of spilling ones beer, which is a concern to yachtsmen worldwide of course.
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Old 19-01-2014, 22:24   #43
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Re: Don't use the Main?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave777 View Post
+1 for the "aft mast" rig.

...

And according to the racers I've crewed for on monos, the jib drives the boat.
You would have a hard time convincing folks with modern fractional rigs (like most modern race designs have) of this idea. These boats, and our cruising boat as well, are definitely mainsail driven.

I'll own up to sometimes sailing on a lone headsail, but if I want to go to windward, or to go fast on any point of sail our ~65 sq meter main will be up (possibly with a few reefs taken).

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Old 19-01-2014, 22:32   #44
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Re: Don't use the Main?

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Originally Posted by dave777 View Post

And according to the racers I've crewed for on monos, the jib drives the boat.
That may be the case on their boats a but a fractional rigged multis is most definitely Main driven
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Old 19-01-2014, 23:13   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Forgetting about Sail magazines ludicrous comment for a moment, I still believe that there is much to commend a mast-aft arrangement for cruising - so long as the manufacturer uses a cutter, rather than a sloop rig. If Lagoon had gone to a cutter rig, they would have not only increased sail area, but had a dedicated staysail/storm jib available in heavy conditions. Frankly, I love my cutter rig with furling on both the headsail and staysail - it enables me to deploy a properly shaped, properly made staysail/storm jib in heavy weather without the need to go to the foredeck. It also moves the Ce of the storm jib both down and in - precisely where it should be. Finally, the staysail increases sail area without raising the height of the mast or requiring a flat-top, or large roach mainsail which is more difficult to handle, and which is less than an ideal shape when heavily reefed.

By way of comparison, my Solaris Sunstream 40 has 865 feet of overall sail area with 16,500 lbs of displacement. Hardly a performance boat, but nevertheless a much better SA/D ratio than the new Lagoon. I suspect that the new rig on the 39 will be the darling of the charter crowd, but as has been pointed out, it is has no advantages other than ease of use for lazy charter sailors.

Brad
How about this 'mainless' rig?

Aftmast rigs??? - Page 7 - Boat Design Forums

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