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Old 12-09-2012, 07:41   #166
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
[B]
If you actually knew anything about those images then you'd know that nearly all of them surpassed 25 years of service a full 15 beyond what any manufacturer recommends. Some of those went around the world twice before failing.
Doh.....it's so sad when a purely academic argument without the support of reality falls apart at the seams
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:08   #167
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

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Doh.....it's so sad when a purely academic argument without the support of reality falls apart at the seams

Actually I'm very glad the company spoke up. Neglect ANYTHING and eventually it will fail. This applies to everything on our boats, not just the stainless.
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Old 12-09-2012, 08:17   #168
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

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Originally Posted by Rakuflames View Post
Actually I'm very glad the company spoke up. Neglect ANYTHING and eventually it will fail. This applies to everything on our boats, not just the stainless.
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Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
90% of rig failures can be prevented with maintenance. but it's not always cheap
Now I feel like a genius......from post #3
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Old 12-09-2012, 09:10   #169
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

Any thing man made will fall apart eventually.

Theory and Practice are two entirely different things,
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Old 13-09-2012, 13:34   #170
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

Here is a link to a sailboat surveyor from the southern part of the country (think warm climate) and his experience with failure of rigging. Sailboat Rig Problems - J. Stormer
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Old 13-09-2012, 14:00   #171
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

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Now I feel like a genius......from post #3

I live to serve!
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Old 13-09-2012, 14:04   #172
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

Guess what it all boils down to is boats built by socialist worker cooperatives won't have Stainless Steel but good old soviet non rusting material. The rest of us filthy capitalist supporting boat owners will be out there suffering with our old SS fittings that haven't failed despite the pronouncements of the the collectivist leader Poo Beetle.

SS is not a forever material. With a little care and inspection it will go 10-20-30 or, in the case of my boat, more than 40 years without a problem. Yes, SS deteriorates faster in the tropics/usually warm locations. Yes, it should be inspected regularly including pulling the chain plates. Yes, swages should be replaced with mechanical terminals , Norseman, StaLok, etc as a matter of principle. Having said that, 304/316 stainless steel is the most reasonable cost, lowest maintenance material available to us poor normal people, however.

Noted that the surveyors examples of corrosion failure on hardware seemed to come exclusively from Taiwan built boats.
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Old 14-09-2012, 18:40   #173
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
Here's the rigging that solves the problem. They make assorted hardware too. I'll bet even Poo likes it.
http://www.colligomarine.com/docs/ne...20releases.pdf
I wonder if the Sta-Lock fittings would mitigate some of the swaging issues described. Whatcha think, Poo?
2nd paragraph of the link.

Quote:
Colligo® Dux Shrouds are made from Dynex Dux, ultra high molecular weight polyethylene, with Colligo Marine hardware. Dynex Dux is UV-resistant for as long as five years.
wow, as much as 5 years

is this a better solution? there is no mention of UV or life expectancy in any of the other product descriptions.

if it has to be regularly replaced could it even be recycled? is it worthwhile to use a substance which has a usable life of ? years with a land fill life of 400?
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Old 14-09-2012, 22:55   #174
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

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I live to serve!
Do you worm & parcel as well
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Old 15-09-2012, 06:37   #175
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Do you worm & parcel as well
Ha ha ha oooohhhh uggggg
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Old 15-09-2012, 08:57   #176
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

Consider bronze. The downside is it turns green, but does the job: Sta-Lok Turnbuckles | Sta-Lok Bronze Turnbuckles | Traditional Rigging | R&W Rope and for chainplates see Converting to and Fabricating Bronze Chainplates / Tangs
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Old 21-09-2012, 18:32   #177
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

Dismasting - Why does it happen, how to prevent it.

Appendix Part 2 – My own rig

This is my own mast and rigging design that prompted all the previous stuff you've been reading; in an effort to be free forever from any maintenance, any inspections, or any failures. I hit the books and soon found out that all this was very easy to achieve. You just have to want it.

You all know i'm building a 55 foot cat, and doing all the rigging myself because i want it done to normal modern accepted engineering standards that would have to be used by law on land.

( and not the standard unregulated capitalist offering of a cheap shitty death trap that regularly fails, dismasts you, or injures friends and family.)

so the reason i actually knew all this stuff is because i've been studying for ages trying to design mast rigging that won't screw me over in the middle of nowhere.

So here is my attempt at doing a better job than a rigging company. Easy as.

I just wish i could have given the job to a yacht mast rigging firm instead, but they are all just too silly to speak to. They all refuse to do the job to a standard that would actually be legal on land under normal safety laws.

I'm glad i posted, as polishing this up for you peeps ;

- helped firm my own resolve; - as marketing works – and if there is enough bullshit, then you drown in a sea of it. Your mind finds it really hard to go keep going when every other single bit of information out there is against you.

The impact of 316 stainless steel performance in chlorine and under stress facts; of the true reality, gets washed away by the huge FLOOD of marketing ideas, marketing facts, marketing words; what's true is slowly dissolved, eroded, and diluted until your motivation for decency slowly merges back to the capitalist offerings.

- Changed my own rig design; to a fully redundant design.
- I added an extra forestay; it's now a solent rig
- ensured the baby stays can easily take all the load by themselves
- have single nested diamonds instead of single diamonds or twin diamonds.

- clarified my thinking.

In General
Everything custom made in UNS S32550

I will never inspect my rigging ever. There is no need.

The calculations were actually real and true. I actually took alloy life expectancy under load cycles in salt water, temperature and chlorine data into account. Is this a First in yachting rigging history? Yes. It is.

Every single piece will last forever in salt water, immune from stress cycles, immune from stress corrosion cracking in salt water. Every single piece will last forever, and never fail. Ever.

Remember the difference between driving a dung cart and a modern car? The difference between the two is REAL. This alloy is far beyond 316 in strength. But more importantly insanely far beyond 316 in metal fatigue, stress corrosion cracking, crevice corrosion, brittle snapping clean in half, cycles under load in salt etc.

This stuff is utterly immune from intergranular crevice corrosion, and so will never fail. Ever.

Cost
This always seems to be the main objection. Yet compare the (SMALL damn you) extra cost with loosing your mast or replacing a friend.

If you ever have to replace your wire ropes, then it's cheaper to do it this way in the first place.

If you ever get dismasted then its infinitely cheaper to do it this way.

You already know from reading Part 2 and Appendix Part 1 that it can sometimes even be cheaper than 316 anyway.
As
If you buy a part from a shop you pay around 300% more than if you buy direct from the factory, and the alloy used is cheaper than 316 in bulk, and also twice the strength. So you need smaller parts. See?

The thing you are looking at now is called the internet. This thing allows you to communicate directly to a factory. Can you see what's about to happen?

Do this;
goto eBay and look at the cost of stuff.

My last mobile phone (inbuilt TV, 3000 nintendo games, the only phone with true nintendo gameboy buttons flip console, radio, dvd's, mp3s etc etc etc etc etc ) cost $1000 in a normal shop and $100 on eBay direct from the factory in china. My exact electric shaver cost $160 in a shop and $1 direct from the factory in china. So we do the same thing here.

Get your quotes from small local engineering CNC firms (if you give them one part, they duplicate it exactly in the alloy of your choice), small rigging fittings manufacturers (as they will actually communicate with you, and the large boys didn't even reply to me), and small chinese rigging firms.

here's an example of the cost

316 Chainplate bought from a shop;
Chainplate Straight;
Pin Hole 16 mm,
Fastener Holes (5) 13 mm
Length 406 mm
Width 38 mm
Thickness 8 mm
Weight 1.13 kg
$203.20

Same 1 Kg Flat Bar in 8mm x 40mm x 400mm, but you have to drill the holes yourself.
AL6XN or 254SMO - $60
Zeron 100 - $32
32550 - $56 from australia
32550 - $7 from china, plus postage.

25% of the cost of a 316 chainplate bought from a shop. So it is actually cheaper than the stuff that will dismast you, but you have to be able to drill a hole.
or
$7 from china. And if you look at the Outukompu bulk price sheet in Part 11, you'll see that they are still making at least 250% profit.

Whatever happens just make sure you get the 2% copper alloy, not 2507. It's more modern. Get the modern alloy. 32550.

S32550 plate in Australia was $5000 for 4mm x 2.4x1.2 m
so $56.85 / Kg is the rough price.

S32550 is $7 /Kg from china

bit of a difference.

Wire Rope
I've seen far too many wire rope strands fatigue and break from thrumming under heavy load (at the swage). The copper ensures more ductility and more immunity from micro-hardening due to vibrations while under stress, and also ensures any micro cracks heal. Twice the end yield of 2507 under cyclic fatigue loads in chlorine. Not a single broken strand ever.

I'm having custom wire rope manufactured for me, and these are some calculations

Ferralium 255SD50 Wire Rope (sold as Amminox 255) (UNS S32550)
0.2% Yield Strength = 550MPa = 55 Kg / mm2

Cross Sectional Area True Cross Sectional Area
Diameter 1x19 compaction factor; Mpa; SWL
9mm 63.6mm2 x .785 = 50mm2 x 55 Kg = 2746 Kg
10mm 78.5mm2 x .785 = 61mm2 x 55 Kg = 3390 Kg
11mm 95mm2 x .785 = 75mm2 x 55 Kg = 4100 Kg
12mm 113mm2 x .785 = 89mm2 x 55 Kg = 4883 Kg

so twice as strong as 316 wire rope, and the strands will never break.
all my stays in 12mm wire rope, all diamonds in 10mm wire rope

Amminox 255 1x19 is available off the shelf
Duplex & Super Duplex Stainless Steels
Super Duplex Stainless Steel
Stainless & Alloy Specifications - Loos & Co., Inc. will also make it.

Basically 10mm from england is $30 a meter, versus $17/m for 316.
but 2507Cu is cheaper than 316 in raw elements.

So it will certainly be a small chinese or indian wire rope firm that gets the order to custom manufacture due to much cheaper prices.

Normal Sailing Loads
130m2 sail, usual maximum load of 20 knots @ 90degrees = 7.5Kg x 130m2 and the load divided equally between mast base, sail tacks, and mast top (therefore stays) with 2 stays
= 7.5Kg x 130m2 = 975 / 3 = 325 Kg usual max force divided by 2 stays = 200Kg on each stay.

Note there is no mention of breaking loads.

Note that I have not included rig tensioning. I'm using an old catamaran surveyors recommended minimum tension and adjusted while sailing only method – versus the normal “tension to 15 or 20% of the 316 wire rope breaking load” method. Duplex ropes have very little stretch so I expect the end tension to be around 200 Kg. I chose this method years ago because the old crusty cat surveyor had convinced me with pics of deformed hulls and logic and stories and stuff.

Designed maximum load
40 knots and full sail up @ 90 degrees gives 130m2 x 30 Kg/m2 = 3900Kg /3 fixed points and then held by 2 stays = 650 Kg per 12mm stay.

Normal use max load safety factor of 4800 / 200 = 24

Designed maximum load safety factor 4800 / 650 = 7

No rules of thumbs, no 90% of the yield, no 1 sixth of the Breaking Load. These are real safety factors. They actually exist and they are well inside the yield strength, and despite the temperatures the cat is sailed in, the age of the fittings, and whatever stress the fittings may see in their life of use, the Safety Factors will still exist, and exist unchanged. Forever.

(For General Interest;
Europeans have a law saying very expensive escape hatches installed in cats for if they capsize, yet nothing like a very cheap auto release cleat to actually stop you going over in the first place. The stunning stupidity. Astounding idiocy.

I consider the adjustable auto release cleats and clutches to be the single most important insurance on the entire boat. Equal to the value of the entire 55 foot catamaran, and all the people inside it as well.

And yes, once again, I'm having to have these custom made for me by a small engineering firm. So the designed maximum of all sail up at 90 degrees to a squall will never happen anyway.

Just FYI.)

The Real and True Multiple Safety Factors won't evaporate into thin air if you ever decide to sail for 6 months in the tropics.

There is a stunning difference in quality between my rigging and what you get off the shelf. I'm actually using modern normal engineering standards, methods, and practices, so that the rig is totally beyond doubt, and then, and only after that, have real and true safety factors of exactly the same quality on top.

Compare this with yacht rigging companies around the world and their 316 misleading, total bullshit, absolutely doesn't exist “safety factor of 6” which is over the yield already, and on an alloy that gets crevice corrosion. Accident waiting to happen.

Their big Breaking Loads data figures sound much safer than my wire don't they? Of course you'd get them to do your rigging over me doing it for you. They're professionals.

Chain Plates
I decided to invent my own data suitable for design for everything else other than rope, 275 MPa out of a 550MPa yield. Why so high? Why not a quarter? The one quarter of the yield suitable for design is just a rule of thumb that IS suitable for unbelievably stupid and primitive old alloys chemistry. So this is my rule of thumb for MODERN chemistry alloys.

6cm wide x 50cm long x 12mm thick = 30000 kg yield in UNS S32550, 15000 nominal
Why so thick? the thicker chainplate is kinder to the turnbuckle fork bolt.

6 stays, so 6 individual Super Duplex chainplates.

Toggles
Even i am starting to bend to convenience. I KNOW that i should put toggles in to minimise the vibration stress waves dissipating at the wire rope/swageless fitting density change area, but i just couldn't be arsed.

My brother would snort in derision were i to tell him that i was going to leave these out, but i think i am going to leave them out.

Open Body Turnbuckles.
Capitalists (ie rigging companies) always sell 316 or CHROME plated bronze turnbuckles, but the chrome ALWAYS wears off real quick and your million dollar yacht ends up looking bad in a few short years.

Sure the chrome plating looks GREAT in the packet in the shop, but is 1/100th of a millimeter thin, and just dissolves away and then looks bad for the rest of your expensive boats life.

So i'm getting these custom made. (again, i've just seen too many turnbuckles that look bad. And the reason they look bad, is because they ARE bad).

A million dollar boat with rubbish looking turnbuckles just doesn't look good. So the capitalists can keep them as well.

Wanted open body only, as dismasting has happened due to unscrewing, and both lock nuts and pins failing, so i want to inspect them, i want them visible, i want to SEE with my own eyes any movement. I want to SEE what’s going on. Closed body turnbuckles should never be under consideration in any mast rigging, yet guys get blaise', other people do it, so they do to. They unscrew, and that's the rig gone. At least with open bodies you can instantly see any movement. See if the split pin has failed, or the lock nut moved.

Dismasting has happened due to both lock nuts and pins failing, so i'm having both.

Bugger me, imagine loosing your mast for the want of a 20 cent part, and yet it has happened.

(p.s.
Galling is the reason they use bronze my arse. They could easily use one thousand more expensive stainlesses. It's cheapness every time. (ie Hardness difference between nut and bolt or hard alloys where galling doesn't occur) 316 galls at 13MPa, a stunningly soft iron alloy. UNS S32550 has a theoretical galling of 300MPa (I could find no true study), so you'd have to be flogging your mast to breaking point to get galling, but i'll use a modern teflon based vacuum grease anyway, just in case, as this lasts forever, and never has to be replaced.))

Problems
I still have some design problems. Mainly difficulties optimising the rigging fittings designs for the 32550 high strength.
ie
Pin sizes in 316 for 12mm wire rope turnbuckles are 19mm
316 12mm wire rope turnbuckles thread sizes are 20mm

32550 is twice the strength of 316, so 20mm thread size is way oversize, but it's so much easier to just order the part, or give a part to a CNC mob and say duplicate it. (Rather than redesigning it). So that's what i'll do.

UNS S32550 Bolts at yield (55Kg/mm2)
10mm 78.5mm2 x 55 = 4317 Kg
12mm 113mm2 x 55 = 6215 Kg
14mm 153mm2 x 55 = 8415 Kg
16mm 201mm2 x 55 = 11000 Kg
18mm 255mm2 x 55 = 14000 Kg
20mm 314mm2 x 55 = 17300 Kg

Other Fittings
I'm pondering using normal shanked bolts instead of pins and split pins. As guys have lost their entire masts due to a 316 pin SCC/falling out, so I will probably use Super Duplex bolts with both lock nuts AND split pins. You can get Super Duplex bolts anywhere. Remember, I intend to never inspect the rig. Thus pondering the belt and suspenders approach.

All mast fittings, tangs, lugs, 2 forestay round bar chainplate toggles, bolts, and compression tube spacers are to be made from UNS S32550. NO 316 anywhere on the mast. (Heaps elsewhere; just not on the mast)

Mast Compression bars are 14mm x 35cm 32550 threaded rods, with (nut, washer, plate, aluminium tang bolt doubler plate ) both inside and outside of each side of the mast. ie 4 sets on one through bolt giving 2 tangs outside, one either side of the mast.

Tangs are single 10mm x 40mm flat bar (not double flat bar tangs with pin as most shops sell) 14 000 Kg yield.

Solent rig with twin furling jibs
The options for forestay redundancy were;
Cutter/Inner forestay/Solent or just a plain unused redundant forestay - unused and no tension on it

Due to this thread, i decided to add a solent, with twin roller furlers with jibs, and only use the inner normally, unless down wind.
Unique Twin Jib Rig
(would have lost his mast if he didn't have one.)

This gives both mast staying upright redundancy, a full sail in instant reserve, a full spare roller furler redundancy, as well as great, easy to reef down wind ability. Much easier to control and reef in strong wind while going down hill than a spinnaker in the middle of the night.

here's a guy that loves them
“I think it is one of the best sailing rigs for cruising.”
Twin Forestay


So there you are. That's the full story. This is what i've been doing to side step being dismasting. Getting custom fittings is easy, as this is exactly what small engineering firms do.
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Old 21-09-2012, 18:35   #178
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

Dismasting - Why does it happen, how to prevent it. The final chapter.

Appendix Part 3 – Does Anybody Else Want Some?

32550 wire rope.
Yes it is available in europe, but expensive, and Loose Co have said they will manufacture it for me, but the cost for a single person is high as they have to make minimum purchases of alloy.

Undoubtedly a small chinese or indian firm will get the business. They have far more desire and ability to supply small orders.

There is no rush. I suggest you study the matter for a year.

A single photograph was good enough for me. Yet some people here still maintain the earth is flat. They refuse to even Google images “dismasted”, and yet are still willing to post here.

If more people order, the cost drops.

Should be the same price as 316 wire rope.

I'm getting 100m of 10mm and 120m of 12mm.

I was going it all alone in china or india, but if other people are interested, then i'll go american made.

I don't care.

Is anybody interested in reserving some of the batch that is going to be made when I order? Easy and cheaper to increase the size of the batch being made, difficult and expensive if you decide to go it alone.

Or am I all alone?

I really don't care what other people do. I'm still going all alone if none of you are interested. This is just what I’m doing.

Anybody buying a new cat? And want the rigging in modern, safe, never fail rigging instead of 100 year old rubbish?

Anybody out there got to replace their 316 wire ropes soon anyway? As 7 years old?

Anybody building a new cat or yacht? Want wire rope that lasts forever?

Want infinitely better quality at the same price?

Alloy approved by a world class metallurgist.

Anybody recently had their 316 rigging condemned by a surveyor? And need new stuff?

Anybody considering going sailing in the tropics?

Don't want to loose the mast as happens to so many other people?
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Old 21-09-2012, 18:56   #179
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

Apologies

I had to answer Post Number One first. Manners, netiquiette, and so forth. So i apologise to anybody that may feel i've avoided their post, but i wanted to answer the original post first. I'm just now reading all the questions and comments that followed my Manifesto. I knew questions would arise, but repeating facts that would appear in latter chapters is silly, as they would be out of context. It is more coherent to write things this way. So I tried not to read any of your posts until after I had finished answering Post Number One, as I knew there would be the usual sample bag of random dismisals of reality, distractions, side tracks, fun humour etc.


First there is an apology to Factor.

"If you are referring to me I dont recall saying that?"

All my manifesto was written away from the forum, and so, i wrote "Remember the Seawind catamarans Vendor guy" in my notes, as; i didn't remember you.

Factor, this deserves an apology. I was wrong, I apologise, and I hope you understand that I was away from the forum actual and was researching for my huge 316 Manifesto at the time. This was poor journalism that slipped through proof reading due to the fact that i was moving as fast as possible (as it's all boring because it's all so obvious), and so was focusing too much on other facts, the big picture coherency etc, and so you slipped through the cracks.

I understand that we can never be friends because I dislike 316.

But please don't think I intended being rude, it just somehow slipped through proof reading.

Every single thing being spot on was my intention.

So once again, I apologise.

oops. :o(



Other mistakes.
Some of the dribble i wrote is too strongly worded for my liking. were this a paper, i would have polished it a lot more before handing in.

I did makes some mistakes, and BIG ones. i meant to say X, and X is plainly what i should have said, but the term Y is in there instead.

poo.

I left off specific qualifiers for some things, I should have added "in salt or chlorine" after a few statments and one person has already confused 316 fittings in fresh water versus in salt water, but salt is what we are talking about and most people understand perfectly anyway. So you are not getting a perfect text book, just some dodgy story that half of you out there appear to think is lies anyway.

Weird. As one single photograph convinced me to actually do all of that work and a lot more besides.



An Apology to Some Special People.

I apolgise to those that had to put up with my Ranting, being Paranoid, Extremism, Communism, and my Agenda. etc.

I lurked for many years and never bothered speaking.

Like some weird unfathomable whale (a Narwhal), i surfaced ever so briefly, offended quite a few with my 316 communist blasphemy, and then, mercifully, disappear back into the unfathomed depths of deep cyberspace, back down into the murky depths where he belongs.


lurking . . .


waiting . . . .


skulking . . . .


316 is rubbish? back creature, back! down damn you! back to the depths of hell where you belong.

Another IT boy once said to me, if i had of been born 300 years ago, they'd have burnt me as a witch.

Click image for larger version

Name:	Avenging-Narwhal-Playset.jpg
Views:	358
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(a narwhale, spearing a poor, defenceless, innocent fur seal.)


so i apologise unresevedly to all small defenceless entities injured by this encounter.
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Old 21-09-2012, 19:52   #180
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Re: Dismasting - Why Does it Happen - How to Prevent it

Hey Poo ever thought of an unstayed Bi -rig set up. you will sleep better at night without all your worry about 316.
Give your fingers a holiday to.
enough already
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