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Old 15-02-2019, 21:06   #1
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Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

I've perused many threads here about whether or not to put a catamaran into the Moorings (or Dream) program. Most threads seem to focus on whether or not it's a good "investment" or whether or not folks use all of their allotted charter time as owners. Those are NOT my questions here.

Rather I would like to hear specifically from anyone who has kept their boat for personal use after its time in the Moorings or Dream fleets. I know any boat in constant charter gets hard use during all of those years. I know you don't get the boat back in anything resembling new condition. But I really want to hear specifics - if you kept your boat after the 5 or so years in the charter fleet, what was the actual condition of the boat: what surprised you (good or bad) about the phase out process and what your boat looked and performed like when it got turned over to you? Were you surprised about the amount of money you had to put into it after the years of chartering?

We are considering buying a boat in one of these 2 programs for them to charter out for 5 years and then we (2 people) live aboard it in the Caribbean and/or Eastern seaboard of the U.S. for approx. 2 years.

Many thanks in advance for your insight!
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Old 15-02-2019, 21:51   #2
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

Fixing up a boat that has been in the charter trade for 5 years is going to be a large task. They are often beat up and not even safe to deliver back to the North East for a refit, You will not believe the work required til you do i.
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Old 16-02-2019, 01:40   #3
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

I wouldn't say all but most charter companies don't look after well their boats. They don't have qualified staff, they are running out of time during the season (the boats are returning Friday evening and they've got to be ready for the next customer Saturday by midday..) .Sometimes they are operating in locations where qualified people and spare parts are not readly available . I bought a cat from Dream in Montenegro, we couldn't find a simple 12 V switch for 3 days and ended up using a car switch.. Add on top that most of these boats are lightly built brands that cannot resist to abuse of charter customers, the end result is 90% of chartrer boats after 5 years are tired, to say the least. Cat sails last 5-7 years and need to be revewed (10-15.000 USd according to the size of the boat) pretty soon after 5 years, engines will be at around 3.000-4.000 hours and if not properly maintained, it can be an expensive repair and so on.
I see that some charter companies are offering guarantee incomes. The shortest way to increase the income is to cut off the maintenance.
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Old 16-02-2019, 02:17   #4
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

I don’t have a boat in charter company to answer.
I do charter “frequently” ( Moorings/ Sunsail/ DYC ) exclusively. We do it about 2 times a year. I’m personally happy with their maintenance, care of the vessels and support. We generally go for the up to 3 year old ones... so I can’t make comment s for the ones older than 5 years. Having a boat in a charter company... clearly works for several folks, since almost every single one has private owner... I’m glad this business model works so I can sail everywhere in a big boat without owning one...( I take really good care of their boats ).
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Old 16-02-2019, 05:05   #5
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

I cannot speak for any experience with Dream but I can for Sunsail/Moorings.

First of all, there are many horror stories but they are the only ones that seem to be talked about, so there is a somewhat biased perception online.

I currently have a boat that was placed into Sunsail new in 2009. It came out in 2014 and I am still sailing the boat today.

The biggest risk you run is damage done to the boat while in charter that does not constitute a total constructive loss. For instance, someone has a hard grounding, the keel is removed and the structural bilge grid is rebuilt. The repair is sound but your value has just plummeted. I have seen this happen, so you need to address this risk before signing any contracts.

From my experience, the boats take most of their beatings not from the guests renting them but from the people who are supposed to be looking after them for you. You need only spend a night on the dock at the Moorings base in Tortola to see all the nav lights and instruments left on while a symphony of battery low voltage alarms plays throughout the night. Most repairs are Mcgivered at best due to short turnarounds and lack of willingness to fix anything properly. My shower drain pump wasn't working at one point. I checked the switch, it was fine. The pump was fine. Eventually I found the wire running from the switch to the pump had no less than 9 bullet connectors in it. Replaced the wire and all was good. It is this sort of mentality that will drive you nuts. I found this sort of stuff all over the boat when I got it back.

IMHO you absolutely must be present for the entire phase out. If not, things will just get pencil whipped. My surveyor for the phase out listed 65 items that needed to be addressed. This was all agreed to by the Moorings and a month later they said the boat was ready. They had signed off on all of the items but after a careful inspection of the boat, I found less than a third had actually been done. One such repair was to the rudder. It was found to be wet in the core on the bottom third. It was agreed that the bottom third of the rudder core would be replaced. They signed off that it had been done. I hauled the boat, saw no evidence of any repair on the rudder. Tapped the rudder with a mallet and water started pouring out. I refused to accept the boat and accused them of fraud. Things were fixed very quickly after that but I was on site each and every day making sure it was being done. BTW, having things done and having things done "properly" will always be an ongoing source of discussion.

It took about a year for me to "de charterize" the boat. Things like the bimini being big enough to land a helicopter on while totally obscurring the sail plan. That had to be redesigned. All of the running rigging needed to be replaced and re routed to my liking. Some lines were over sized, some undersized, none original. I would find things in the wiring that didn't make sense because at some point there had been a McGiver repair bypassing the original factory setup. The house bank and charging system was much too small for any longer distance sailing. That got replaced and upgraded.

All in all, if you are comfortable with or have any knowledge of systems and structure, it was not that bad. I would even buy a boat coming out of charter pre-phase out but you really need to be a hard ass with them. Or hire a bulldog surveyor who will fight for you. No you are not expecting a new boat back but they need to understand crystal clear that you are not going to accept a "Caribbean Repair Basket Case" either. Also, like I said, be prepared to spend some time and money getting the boat "de charterized." Hope that helps.
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Old 16-02-2019, 12:02   #6
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

Not exactly the scenario you describe but similar enough I think. We purchased a boat out of the Sunsail fleet. We moved the boat to a second tier fleet in the BVI and kept it there for two years. We then moved the boat to the Pacific Northwest and put it in a charter fleet for three more years. We spent a year refitting the boat at the end of the three years in the PNW. We're now living aboard and in Puerto Vallarta at the moment.

As everyone says, watch the phase-out closely. Our boat had no major issues. There was certainly a lot of wear and tear. We did almost all the refit work ourselves. Not sure it would make financial sense to pay someone else to do all the work. Keep in mind that we had an additional six years of charter after the first phase out.
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Old 16-02-2019, 13:55   #7
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

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Originally Posted by JESSWILLMS View Post
I've perused many threads here about whether or not to put a catamaran into the Moorings (or Dream) program. Most threads seem to focus on whether or not it's a good "investment" or whether or not folks use all of their allotted charter time as owners. Those are NOT my questions here.

Rather I would like to hear specifically from anyone who has kept their boat for personal use after its time in the Moorings or Dream fleets. I know any boat in constant charter gets hard use during all of those years. I know you don't get the boat back in anything resembling new condition. But I really want to hear specifics - if you kept your boat after the 5 or so years in the charter fleet, what was the actual condition of the boat: what surprised you (good or bad) about the phase out process and what your boat looked and performed like when it got turned over to you? Were you surprised about the amount of money you had to put into it after the years of chartering?

We are considering buying a boat in one of these 2 programs for them to charter out for 5 years and then we (2 people) live aboard it in the Caribbean and/or Eastern seaboard of the U.S. for approx. 2 years.

Many thanks in advance for your insight!
I would suggest you buy an ex Moorings/Sunsail when you are READY to use it. That way you can inspect ALL that are coming out of charter and pick one that has no history of structural damage such as groundings and has a good survey.
Like buying any second hand boat some are better than others.
Generally Moorings/Sunsail ex charter are worth looking at. My first ex Moorings is now 20 years old and happily cruising Pacific with the guy I sold it to. My current ex Moorings is a dream boat at 18 years of age.
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Old 16-02-2019, 15:41   #8
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

My B38 was out of the Moorings fleet in La Paz. (Currently out of business)
Like any used boat I had it surveyed and personally scrutinized every inch of it I could see. I have done a lot of updating and personalizing in the last 14 years since I bought it at 6 years old. I sail year round probably 30-50 days a year, and have since I bought her. The longest trip I did on her was to bring her up from La Paz to Los Angeles. It has been a great boat and I would be comfortable going anywhere (warm). I guess my point is if you know what your looking (and at) for I would not walk away from an ex charter boat. I brought another one, a Jenneau 49 up from La Paz Moorings also. That owner bought her with 8 months left on her initial 5 year run. He was able to sail two weeks and supervised the de chartering of her. All his issues were addressed by Moorings before we took delivery. The boat was handed over ready to take the 1200 mile uphill trip back to Oxnard. We had no issues.
The hardest thing was getting off the red and blue moorings stripes.
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Old 16-02-2019, 16:39   #9
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

I have to concur with others here about wear and tear on chartered boats. No business will maintain a vessel the way a loving owner will, and most charter customers will not use the vessel in the same careful, knowledgeable manner as an owner would. I thought that buying my vessel after five years of professionally captained day charters would make a difference over a Moorings-type deal; but I still had a lot of work to do, some of it with things the surveyor missed- inoperative bilge pumps, electrical issues "fixed" with oversized fuses, fuel injectors in need of replacement causing exhaust slick, air conditioning issues, transmission issues requiring clutch replacement, etc. I also had to re-finish a Coriander kitchen counter that someone evidently used as a chopping board. Certain Moorings operations have reputations for better maintenance of their vessels than others, but you're really accepting a greater level of wear and tear with a chartered vessel in exchange for a lower price (than a comparable never-chartered vessel); and remember, the history of charter follows the boat and exerts a downward pressure on pricing when you go to sell it too.
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Old 17-02-2019, 07:30   #10
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

Agree with the wear and tear by many of the bare boat charterers to the boats. There is actually a great deal of unknowledgeable people who also lack seaman ship who are bareboating. The good side, there are also highly experienced excellent sailors who do take care of the vessels that the charter for a week or two.

Add in the charter company base lack of maintenance, and the charterers not squawking or listing the problems that existed or that they created.

We have bare boat chartered with the moorings for 35 years, world wide, That also includes sunsail. Presently we now bare boat with Conch Charters.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why the change ?

The moorings : Last time, was the last straw. Very expensive, and we SAIL monohulls. Very little engine use.

Since we started with bare boat chartering, we spend a couple of hours or more going thru every system on board. Anchor, standing rigging, running rigging, the engine room, all pumps, marine head, running rigging, sails, electronics, electrical, fresh water, and fuel, etc, etc, that we can at the docks. That is before the systems briefer gets on board . I have a four page check list that I have type up .
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The last moorings, monohull, 35 or 36. Just Erica and I.

During our inspection, I found a large tear at the lower luff , near the tack of the mainsail . That type of tear occurs when the main is not properly reefed and the sail is actually turned the wrong way and the rams horn tears completely thru the sail.

I pointed it out to the mooring systems briefer and he said he would send someone down from their BVI base sail loft to replace the main. Well , no one came.
I walked up to the sail loft, the guys were all sitting around, and explained the situation. They just looked at me, knew nothing about it, and went on with their personal conversation.

What would you do ? Sit at the docks for a few days until someone got off their okole.

Not going to happen:

I told them I would handle it myself. I put in a double reef, that stopped any stress what so ever on the lower luff of the main, and off we went.

Another problem :

Outside Whickhams cay, we hauled up and stowed the fenders, and the docklines, and raise the main. There are just two of us, so I engaged the auto pilot as we made up and secured the running rigging lines.

The weather was rain, low clouds and very low visibility that you could not see Norman or any of the other islands.

The auto pilot showed the proper heading. We have the vessel all squared away, reef in the main, dink painter paid out and secured, and I see that the visible Road Harbor land marks are not correct as to our carted D/R track line heading. We are off course.

I check the ships compass and the auto pilot course reading. They do not agree, they are off by 50 degrees or more. I also bring along my own hand bearing compass, and compared my hand bearing compass with the ships compass with the auto pilot.

The ships compass was correct, the auto pilot was not. So we turned off the auto pilot, and did not use it all the rest of the two week trip. This is not a big deal to us, since we navigate using coastal piloting and navigation. And we enjoy sailing the boat hands on, with no electronic wonder involved. We swap out helm and crew /nav duties every 30 minutes or hourly depending on the length of the passage.

After the two weeks of sailing the BVI, and using our usual 7 to 8 gals of fuel, mostly to charge the batteries and pick up moorings,

Back at the Moorings base, for the post sailing check in.

I presented a written list of 16 squawks on the our moorings vessel. Some should have absolutely been taken care of before the next charter party boarded .

The moorings staff person came on board, sat down, with their clip board. I explained each of the descrepacies. The person put their pen to the paper , and did not write down or note a single thing. I do not believe they understood a one word of nautical termonology , or names of the boat systems.

That was the last of the high priced mooring boats for us. We switched over to sunsail.
But , again, they are expensive, and all part of TUI, the great conglomerate of corporate numbers.

We wanted a new and different charter company. For our next BVI trip, I called Conch, that next BVI trip would be number 15. Immediately , we got a $ 1100.00 discount, plus another discount . Our next two BVI bare boat charter were with Conch. Super friendly, great people, both of the boats were older, but well taken care of.

We remembered , the old days, actually the beginning or our international bare boat sailing vacations with the moorings. They were human beings who related to the charterers and their crews. Those were very special days and wonderful memories.

Not only the BVI, but Tahiti, Tonga, Windwards and Grenedines, Australia, . Then, TUI took over the moorings, sunsail and footloose. Different style .

The last straw with the moorings was the ripped main, and the inop auto pilot, ( that most people who bare boat now, would have turned on, and in those limited vis conditions would have just kicked back, had a brew, and expected to go to their destination and totally missed the island. ) Hello Atlantic ocean.

And, at Check in, when all of those sqawks, including ripped mainsail were ignored, that was it. We were Done with the moorings.

That list of 16 descrepancies ... the staff never even looked at it. I left it on the chart table. Probably was tossed out when the cleaning crew boarded.

As to putting a vessel in charter, and keeping after the contract with charter company is up, a lot comes into effect. The quality and actual seamanship, knowledge and ability of the bare boater. Plus respect for the vessel by the bare boat skipper and also the passengers .

Then comes the base maintaining the vessel , the systems, the sails, rigging, engine, etc. and general up keep by the charter company itself.

As to keeping the vessel at end of contract, It may come down to the roll of the dice. Everything could turn out just fine, but, personally our trust in huge corporations in regard to the boat charter biz, is now zero.

Also, from what we observe , while out there sailing, there is a great lack of seaman ship. Not everyone, but a great majority are totally into water world disneyland week in the BVI. That does not bode well for a long life of the vessel.

Again, this is what we have experienced, and many of the bare boats over the years have been just fine. But, it seem the times they are a changing,

As others here have mentioned, in relation to the O.P. plans, do your own very thorough inspections, as well as getting a very professional survey, and make sure all of the noted problems by you and the surveyor have been fixed , or replaced .

for us it was sad, to see the moorings and sunsail change . 35 years ago, they were our first bare boat experience, sailing ( BVI) ,the caribbean, Shortly and for many years, followed the fabulous adventures in paradise world wide. We felt a kinship, and actually friendship with them, and were very loyal. Several decades.

We trusted and knew that the boats we were assigned were in good condition.
That was not just Erica and myself, I actually was fotilla leader for out sailing club, with up to 12 moorings vessels in the BVI, Windward and Grenadines, Tonga and Tahiti.

It actually was very disappointing, to say good bye to the moorings and sunsail, but they are not the original Moorings that we came to love and respect.

So, we now bareboat with a family owned charter company, and so far they and their boats, staff, briefers, office personnel have been great. That has been two , 2 week sailing vacations, and the third is approaching quickly, this May.

Fact is boats in charter get worn, and well used. They really do need to be taken care of , but, continual use , and sometimes abuse will take its toll.
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Old 17-02-2019, 16:16   #11
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

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I have to concur with others here about wear and tear on chartered boats. No business will maintain a vessel the way a loving owner will
That's true, but what is the percentage of loving owners compared to absentee owners and owners who don't know how to take care of a boat? That loving owner is a fairly rare breed and he keeps his boat a long time.

I owned a monohull in Sunsail until 2015 at the Tortola base. When it came out of the fleet I hired a very conscientious local surveyor and he found about 95 items to comment on. Sunsail fixed about 90 of them, said that a few were only cosmetic, and fixed a couple of things that weren't on the surveyor's list. For instance, they replaced the floorboards because they were badly scuffed. I was very pleased with the thoroughness of the phase-out repairs, even though they lagged well behind the projected date of turning the boat over to me. I kept the boat for two and a half more years until Irma got it.

So, if I were buying a used boat sight unseen and one was a Sunsail phase-out that had been reconditioned and the other was a privately owned and maintained? boat, I would prefer the professionally maintained and phased out Sunsail boat.

However: Sunsail and Moorings have changed ownership again, no longer TUI, and I hear negative things from the maintenance staff about how the new owners treat them. That does not bode well for owners of current Sunsail/Moorings boats or for those who buy phased out boats. Also, the quality of maintenance varies somewhat from one base to another. I haven't ever used Dream Yachts but the same probably applies to them also.

There are so many variables in this equation, that it is difficult to establish rules of thumb about which option is better than another. But one constant is the surveyor. There are conscientious ones and lazy ones and those who like to give good reports on boats from sellers who send them lots of business. Don't buy any boat without an exceptionally good surveyor examining it, and go to any lengths necessary to make sure of the quality of the surveyor. During any phase out or refurbishing, do what it takes to be present while the work is being done.
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Old 17-02-2019, 17:21   #12
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

I suggest you find a spot within easy visual range of the charter base you are contemplating a purchase from. Bring your binocs and unobtrusively observe how the staff handle the boats on a turn-around day.



I've been moored on docks adjacent to 4 different charter outfits, two of them Moorings/Sunsail bases. Horrid. It's a wonder there are any transmissions/saildrives left in the boats. I have no doubt there are many unreported dock impacts. Not so much from the customers, but from the staff.


The third base I got to closely observe was a family owned charter company in Belize. Completely different. Great care was taken. The boats looked in great condition, too.


The fourth base was in Bellingham, Pacific NW. They, too, seemed quite conscious of their responsibilities to the owners.


If it was a good deal, I wouldn't have a problem with seriously considering a boat from the latter two bases. I wouldn't even take the trouble of thinking about it from the first two, as I couldn't believe what they said in the first place.



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Old 17-02-2019, 17:34   #13
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

I'll jump in here, why not? Try a smaller company. We have chartered a bunch in the BVI with BVI Yacht Charters. The last time, we got an older boat that turned out to be the BEST charter boat we've ever had - including those almost new. HOWEVER, the owner was a perfectionist. He insisted upon regular maintenance, and he took his weeks on the boat, and took the opportunity to make sure they kept up with it. In the long run, he found that his boat costs were lower, and that the charterers were happier. He also has the charterers read and sign an agreement. It's just part of the deal when you charter that boat.



What's even crazier is that the boat is STILL in charter. Even after the hurricane. And it's pristine. PM me and I'll send you his info.
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Old 17-02-2019, 23:01   #14
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

I can agree with he comment above and that is buy a charter boat WHEN you need it. I bought my cat from Mooring in the Seychelles and when I flew to see her she was the best of 4 same boats. I bought the 3 cabin owners version which was seldom out on charter (log book entries) and well kept compared to the 4 cabin version which were used and abused. The manager told me that the sunsail boats and 4cabin boats are usually used by price conscious people that cram as many people on that they are allowed to make it cheaper for the week. The 3 cabin versions are usually charted by families with less through traffic on the boat.
My experience was a good one
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Old 18-02-2019, 02:44   #15
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Re: Did you keep your Moorings boat after the 5 years in charter?

As previously mentioned, TUI no longer owns Moorings/Sunsail.
The TUI Group said it has an agreement to sell it’s U.K.-based travel operator Travelopia, parent of Sunsail and The Moorings, to the U.S. private equity firm KKR & Co. for $403.7 million.
https://www.tradeonlytoday.com/indus...-new-ownership
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