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Heath68 · 14-03-2019, 23:36

Hi guys n girls, For a variety of reasons I'd rather not go into (£ included) we (wife and I) find ourselves being drawn to a choice between the Dean 5000 and the Kynsna 500. Both 50ft, both comfortable cruisers, both seem to have similar hull shapes. Dean is 21tons, Kynsna 13... but with different sail plan sizes. Will that weight difference make a huge difference sailing? (We're circumnavigating) Has anyone suggestions/opinions on why one is better than another?
I've looked at loads over the past few years and have even made arrangements to view specific boats for sale but things got in the way of being able to go forward and I have a window of a couple of months before we settle on a purchase.

udyy · 18-08-2019, 21:08

Try and sail the dean in 2+ m waves and the amount of green water on the bows will match the weight difference. The knysna 500 behaviour in rough seas is great. There are of course other pluses and minuses to consider but weight is crucial in cats. By the way the knysna 500 loaded (CE weight is closer to 16 tons).

Hartings · 19-08-2019, 00:00

udyy - Would be interested in hearing what you consider to be the other pros and cons ?

Heath68 · 19-08-2019, 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by udyy

Try and sail the dean in 2+ m waves and the amount of green water on the bows will match the weight difference. The knysna 500 behaviour in rough seas is great. There are of course other pluses and minuses to consider but weight is crucial in cats. By the way the knysna 500 loaded (CE weight is closer to 16 tons).

Sorry to be a pain but im not sure I understand.. the Dean is heavier? Did you mean the Knysna in 2m waves takes on water? My one main concern in both boats is- Dean/speed. Vs Knysna/slamming.
I've been assured by a couple of people on both fronts but they are not big in number.

udyy · 19-08-2019, 05:43

No pain

unfortunately unless you are a seasoned delivery captain, in this selection process, you are mostly shooting in the dark.
I must say that my experience with Dean is limited to 2 daily sails once on the old dean and once on the Exquisite which is the evolution of the Dean (I should emphasize that I found a lot of smart seaworthy features on the Exquisite probably due to the vast sailing/operating experience of the company owners). I have sailed over 8000 nm on the knysna so neturally I know the knysna much better.
The Dean is the one taking water on the bow reletively soon. I do not see it as cardinal issue since cats do not carry the water long due to the nets (unless they have front porch and clogged scoops). This is surely connected to weight and its distribution. That's said, in big seas most the cats I have sailed will get breaking waves once in a while. More breaking waves stress (me) and reduce the comfot level.
As for weight, you must compare apples to apples. One way is to find the CE weight which means that the weight includes partially full water and diesel tanks, all the equipment provided by the manufacturer, safety equipment and crew. So you will to find what's exactly is included in this figure. The knysna, exquisite,and most south African cats (except Leopard) that i know, are sold as more or less complete boats. Hence they come with genset, watermaker, multiple fridges, AC and safety equipment. Most European cats provide these items either as factory options or aftermarket installation so I am not sure that they include these options in the weight. Unfortunately not every mfr will provide the CE weight. Furthermore, many cats made changes to the original navel architecture design so its not certain that they actually know the exact numbers. You knowbit when you weight it.
As for slamming, bridge clearance is only one part (and to my opinion not always the major factor). Speed, sea condition, wave length, hulls shape, hulls distance and probably more factors that i cannot quantify influence slamming. I have sailed few cats but always in rather limited sets of sea conditions so my experience is partial at best. I have sailed the knysna in almost every sea conditions and my experience is that it slams very little. Again, you cannot compare it to a performance cat sailing at 14-15 knots and slamming extensively vs the knysna in the same conditions which will do 8-9 knots and slam less.
As for pros and cons you can pm me your contact and we can chat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath68

Sorry to be a pain but im not sure I understand.. the Dean is heavier? Did you mean the Knysna in 2m waves takes on water? My one main concern in both boats is- Dean/speed. Vs Knysna/slamming.
I've been assured by a couple of people on both fronts but they are not big in number.

gelliott · 23-09-2020, 16:04

hi there, Im considering a Kynsna , UDYY sailing upwind do you find she slams a lot? another skipper told me she does slam when going upwind, but he really rates the boats anyway....heath what did you end up buying?

Heath68 · 23-09-2020, 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by gelliott

hi there, Im considering a Kynsna , UDYY sailing upwind do you find she slams a lot? another skipper told me she does slam when going upwind, but he really rates the boats anyway....heath what did you end up buying?

Hi
Sad to say WE are still landlocked. Two failed bids on boats that were not ideal for us anyway (we prefer owners versions not ex charter) led into Covid19 and travel restrictions and since then the market has been sparse on what we want. So we are still watching the market. We decided against the Dean and are now looking for a St Francis 50, Knysna 500SE or Privilege 515.

Jeannius · 24-09-2020, 00:24

Heath68... If you are considering a St Francis, have you looked at Suliere? I haven't seen the boat in 6 years but at one time I knew the owner and he is absolutely fastidious in everything he does. I'm sure the boat is in great condition.

udyy · 24-09-2020, 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by gelliott

hi there, I'm considering a Knysna , UDYY sailing upwind do you find she slams a lot? another skipper told me she does slam when going upwind, but he really rates the boats anyway....heath what did you end up buying?

Sailing upwind does not cause slamming. If the sea is confused and waves enter in a certain way then you'll have slamming (even when the sea is behind). Hard for me to generalize and compare to some ideal catamaran. From my own experience (and you need to have specific experience and sea conditions) the knysna 500 is less (considerably) than the Voyage, Lagoon, and Dean, about the same as Catana 47, Leopard 48 and more than the Outremer. IMHO, slamming is critical and even show-stopper with boats like the Voyage but nothing to worry about in normal boats. I believe there are other more important factors that need to be considered when evaluating. I hope that works for you.

Tupaia · 24-09-2020, 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heath68

Hi
Sad to say WE are still landlocked. Two failed bids on boats that were not ideal for us anyway (we prefer owners versions not ex charter) led into Covid19 and travel restrictions and since then the market has been sparse on what we want. So we are still watching the market. We decided against the Dean and are now looking for a St Francis 50, Knysna 500SE or Privilege 515.

What about something more local that actually sails well.
https://www.multihullcentre.com/dazcat-1495-apollo/

udyy · 24-09-2020, 06:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tupaia

What about something more local that actually sails well.
https://www.multihullcentre.com/dazcat-1495-apollo/

Looks like an amazing racing boat

gelliott · 24-09-2020, 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by udyy

Sailing upwind does not cause slamming. If the sea is confused and waves enter in a certain way then you'll have slamming (even when the sea is behind). Hard for me to generalize and compare to some ideal catamaran. From my own experience (and you need to have specific experience and sea conditions) the knysna 500 is less (considerably) than the Voyage, Lagoon, and Dean, about the same as Catana 47, Leopard 48 and more than the Outremer. IMHO, slamming is critical and even show-stopper with boats like the Voyage but nothing to worry about in normal boats. I believe there are other more important factors that need to be considered when evaluating. I hope that works for you.

hi there, I realise all that you say, but you do get more slamming upwind than downwind. I have a nautitech Ive sailed 3000 miles on and she occasionally slams so I understand, but some boats do slam more than others, and some boats have a better motion the water than others.....to be more specific, when she does slam is it small but noisy like I tend to get when waves hit the chine on my n40 hulls in mixed sea, or is it more a large slam on the low bridgedeck in confused seas upwind? Downwind of course tends to be much less depending on the sea.....also, on the motion looking at some of the videos on line there seemed to be a slight hobby horse motion, i.e. bow and stern moving up and down, was that just the video or do you tend to get a lot of that? My n40 for example cuts through water very well, with a motion that is much better than many modern lagoons that tends to move over all four corners in a wallowy motion....how would you describe the motion of a Kynsna in anything over 1/2 meter? Also how well does she sail upwind, I think thats often a guide to how well the boart sails overall.....Thanks for any info
in advance!

udyy · 24-09-2020, 11:30

I would say that I was never bothered extremely by this boat's slamming. The only occasions when we had real slamming was with 40 knots, 4 m wind waves behind and 3 m swell on the side near Richards bay. I must say that I was much more occupied with steering, communicating with the crew and dealing with the failed electric installation of the factory. Slamming was just part of the overall noise and was not alarming. I had some slamming crossing from East Africa to Seychelles. This was with the 30-40 kn on AWA 45 degrees. You would get some slam every 5 min. or so when the boat was in some sync with the waves or some freak wave came. It was not alarming as well.
Sailing is one of the positive sides of the k500. It was designed by Levranos (same navel architect of the St. Francis) as an ocean-going boat. The target was the Indian ocean which is demanding. While some design features may have been lost during the evolution the basics stayed. This an old classic hull design, which may not have all the goodies of contemporary designs but it does work. I have been in many rough seas and the boat behaved great. As for pointing, I would say that up to 40-45 APA there are no issues whatsoever. I did manage to point up to 27 APA when constrained by coastal navigation. In order to do so, you have to tweak the attack angle of the gib with additional blocks and you lose speed. But this is in par to many monohulls I sailed.
I Hope my 2c helps.

Heath68 · 25-09-2020, 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeannius

Heath68... If you are considering a St Francis, have you looked at Suliere? I haven't seen the boat in 6 years but at one time I knew the owner and he is absolutely fastidious in everything he does. I'm sure the boat is in great condition.

I have and the boat looks very well equipped.. but for a 10yr old boat it is just too expensive.. a SF50 sold last year for less than half the asking price and it was only 3yrs older.. I could buy a LOT of stuff for the extra £300,000. Don't get me wrong Suliere IS worth a lot more than the above example but not that much and I don't want to offend by what I see as a more realistic price... Plus! And more critically I can't get to the US to look at it (and formal purchase agreements have deadlines in them I cannot meet as the US are not allowing people in)

So when lockdown is easing I plan to put in my offer in and see what reaction I get.