Daggerboard catamarans

[yeloya]

I have quite a bit of experience sailing in fixed keel cats (mostly FP and Lagoon) but I am rather new to daggerboard cats. I just had a 1.000 nm with an Outremer 51 and about the same with a Catana 47 Carbon infusion.
I learnt that while running or broad reaching they are retracted and leeway is used to yr favor. That's the easy part. My questions are;

-When docking undocking the boards are usually retracted and if there is a side wind in a tiny places, it becomes very difficult to control the boat. Remember daggerboard cats are usually lighter than the rest and tend to move sideway very fast. Do you deploy the daggerboards in such manoeuvres ?
-When beating, the book says that after 8-9 kts of speed both daggerboards should be fully retracted. Is this true ?
-At 100/80 degrees AWA, do you use them ?
-At close hauled, which one do you use , leeward, windward, or both ? I would assume fully pushed down in choppy sea and at lower speeds, and a bit less as you speed up, correct ?
-when motor sailing, with the mainsail up and with bit of wind, if the daggerboards are retracted the A/P has difficulties in keeping the straight course.

I've tried different combinations and didn't see much difference with different configurations. I've just noticed that the tacking and gybing also is much more easier and efficient when performed with the daggerboards down.

I came to the conclusion that unless you are broad reaching, the daggerboards have to be used in some way or other.

Would appreciate any input form fellows that have more experience with these cats..

Cheers

Yeloya

[rom]

I have no idea I have a lagoon !

I am interested though. How does the C47 compare upwind to a similar size & weight keel boat ? ok, let's say the Bahia 46 for example ?

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I have quite a bit of experience sailing in fixed keel cats (mostly FP and Lagoon) but I am rather new to daggerboard cats. I just had a 1.000 nm with an Outremer 51 and about the same with a Catana 47 Carbon infusion.
I learnt that while running or broad reaching they are retracted and leeway is used to yr favor. That's the easy part. My questions are;

-When docking undocking the boards are usually retracted and if there is a side wind in a tiny places, it becomes very difficult to control the boat. Remember daggerboard cats are usually lighter than the rest and tend to move sideway very fast. Do you deploy the daggerboards in such manoeuvres ?
-When beating, the book says that after 8-9 kts of speed both daggerboards should be fully retracted. Is this true ?
-At 100/80 degrees AWA, do you use them ?
-At close hauled, which one do you use , leeward, windward, or both ? I would assume fully pushed down in choppy sea and at lower speeds, and a bit less as you speed up, correct ?
-when motor sailing, with the mainsail up and with bit of wind, if the daggerboards are retracted the A/P has difficulties in keeping the straight course.

I've tried different combinations and didn't see much difference with different configurations. I've just noticed that the tacking and gybing also is much more easier and efficient when performed with the daggerboards down.

I came to the conclusion that unless you are broad reaching, the daggerboards have to be used in some way or other.

Would appreciate any input form fellows that have more experience with these cats..

Cheers

Yeloya

Huge grain of salt here! but daggerboards on a cat aren't a whole lot different than in a dinghy. you use them to prevent leeway. so docking/undocking in side wind, I would think you would want them at least partially down. When sailing close hauled I would think you would want the leeward one down. off the wind you don't need them so retract them to reduce wetted surface.

Makes sense really that tacking and jibing is easier with the boards down, gives you a "pivot point" instead of trying to "slide" your way around the turn.

but that's from my (long ago ) experience in dinghy's

[Just Another Sa]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I have quite a bit of experience sailing in fixed keel cats (mostly FP and Lagoon) but I am rather new to daggerboard cats. I just had a 1.000 nm with an Outremer 51 and about the same with a Catana 47 Carbon infusion.
I learnt that while running or broad reaching they are retracted and leeway is used to yr favor. That's the easy part.

Leeway can help in one respect only. Positioning gennaker/headsail away from the windshadow of the mainsail. But it's always even more effective to move the tack of the headsail or gennaker to windward. Underwater more leeway means more drag, which will never help with performance, it just slows your boat down. Compare the same course with board up or down, instead of the same heading and you will realise this more easily, that more leeway does not help you go downwind. Less wetted area can help with performance, but only when the leeway remains small.

Originally Posted by yeloya

My questions are;

-When docking undocking the boards are usually retracted and if there is a side wind in a tiny places, it becomes very difficult to control the boat. Remember daggerboard cats are usually lighter than the rest and tend to move sideway very fast. Do you deploy the daggerboards in such manoeuvres ?

Off course, as long as there is enough water depth to avoid grounding.

Originally Posted by yeloya

-When beating, the book says that after 8-9 kts of speed both daggerboards should be fully retracted. Is this true ?
-At 100/80 degrees AWA, do you use them ?
-At close hauled, which one do you use , leeward, windward, or both ? I would assume fully pushed down in choppy sea and at lower speeds, and a bit less as you speed up, correct ?

What book?!?
The only reason to keep both retracted upwind is to avoid grounding. Or when performance is of no relevance but survival is.

Originally Posted by yeloya

-when motor sailing, with the mainsail up and with bit of wind, if the daggerboards are retracted the A/P has difficulties in keeping the straight course.

I've tried different combinations and didn't see much difference with different configurations. I've just noticed that the tacking and gybing also is much more easier and efficient when performed with the daggerboards down.

I came to the conclusion that unless you are broad reaching, the daggerboards have to be used in some way or other.

Would appreciate any input form fellows that have more experience with these cats..

Cheers

Yeloya

Forget about doing that when broad reaching. Leave at least one partially down if you want performance.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by rom

I have no idea I have a lagoon !

I am interested though. How does the C47 compare upwind to a similar size & weight keel boat ? ok, let's say the Bahia 46 for example ?

Bahia is not a good example to compare with Catana 47 as she is one fastest boats with a fixed keels..

Catana would point 3-5 degrees more to the wind, gives less leeway. In overall, to every wind angle would be 5-15% faster than Bahia. (Bahia is slightly lighter but has less sail area)

Cheers

Yeloya

[weavis]

I think daggerboards are good for this... Tag 60
LOVE this boat....

[rom]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Catana would point 3-5 degrees more to the wind, gives less leeway.

Do you mean like a lot ? Does it make such an obvious difference that you would like to have daggerboards on your very own boat ? I am really interested in your opinion on this !

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I have quite a bit of experience sailing in fixed keel cats (mostly FP and Lagoon) but I am rather new to daggerboard cats. I just had a 1.000 nm with an Outremer 51 and about the same with a Catana 47 Carbon infusion.
I learnt that while running or broad reaching they are retracted and leeway is used to yr favor. That's the easy part. My questions are;

-When docking undocking the boards are usually retracted and if there is a side wind in a tiny places, it becomes very difficult to control the boat. Remember daggerboard cats are usually lighter than the rest and tend to move sideway very fast. Do you deploy the daggerboards in such manoeuvres ?
-When beating, the book says that after 8-9 kts of speed both daggerboards should be fully retracted. Is this true ?
-At 100/80 degrees AWA, do you use them ?
-At close hauled, which one do you use , leeward, windward, or both ? I would assume fully pushed down in choppy sea and at lower speeds, and a bit less as you speed up, correct ?
-when motor sailing, with the mainsail up and with bit of wind, if the daggerboards are retracted the A/P has difficulties in keeping the straight course.

I've tried different combinations and didn't see much difference with different configurations. I've just noticed that the tacking and gybing also is much more easier and efficient when performed with the daggerboards down.

I came to the conclusion that unless you are broad reaching, the daggerboards have to be used in some way or other.

Would appreciate any input form fellows that have more experience with these cats..

Cheers

Yeloya

Retract Reaching. Not true. Racers never do. They retract some to reduce drag (side load is less and less is needed), but never all. The hull is faster going straight, without leeway. This is obvious.

Docking. Keep them 1/2 down or you will slide.

Motor. Keep them half down or the auto pilot will work harder to steer a boat that is wandering.

Windward. Only the leeward board on some, but both on others (depends on area). Only the windward board in big waves. However, for most sailing, where you will tack at least every few hours, just keep them both down and the boat will point and steer easier.

In survival conditions you probably still need one down if you are truing to feather/forereach. Otherwise, you will simply push off beam to the wind, which is very bad. Otherwise, lift the boards and go deep, running. On some boats a little board is still required even downwind for steering control--it depends on the design--but only a little, and generally 25% of both is best.

And although I have sailed many miles with a hull out of the water, some of it on larger boats, it is a BAD idea on cruising boats and dose not prove you are manly. It proves you lack judgment and have something to prove.

[44'cruisingcat]

I seem to use less daggerboard, less often than others do. Basically, only upwind. Full board in light wind,less in stronger wind.

Maneuvering in a windy marina ,you'd use as much board as depth permits.

[admiralslater]

We have two daggerboard boats an Outremer 45 and a custom from factory Pdq 36 . Before that my brother and I had a Pdq 27 built from plans that also had boards .
I will answer the easiest question first and I agree with all those who stated maximum board for coming into marinas etc. I just had to reverse into a slip in St Lucia with the trades on my forward quarter I used both boards all the way down.
As far as going up wind it depends on the boat and the stituation . Both the Pdqs were designed to use one board going up wind and when racing that is what we do ,we tack the boards as we we tack the boat . On a couple of occasions we have forgotten to tack them and I notice right away a decline in pointing ability when sailing up wind with the weather board only. I leave the board full down upwind no matter what speed we are doing . If the seas get really bouncy I may add a little weather board and and reduce some lee ,just to take off the load .
When cruising the 36 I just lower each one to flush and leave them which is kind of what I do on the Outremer as well .Not the best for performance but less complicated .
I have not been able to find out if the Outremer is supposed to use 1 or 2 at a time judging by their size I would guess 2 .
Down wind I like about a quarter of a board, it makes the steering sharper and it helps in riding the wave (something that both 27&36 are good at ) but I will admit that on a couple of occasions I pulled them up all the way in an attempt to eliminate 2 jibes to the finish line,we run symmetrical chutes so not to bad for performance.
I think that using the up wind board in heavy weather makes some sense but incojunction with a bit of lee would be what I would most likely do .
I also agree with Thinwater keep both hulls in the water when cruising ,even when racing just kissing the water is where the best speeds are . Have not and will not go there with the Outremer but with full crew have danced around it on the PDQs.
David
Any strange spelling or phrases blame apple

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I have quite a bit of experience sailing in fixed keel cats (mostly FP and Lagoon) but I am rather new to daggerboard cats. I just had a 1.000 nm with an Outremer 51 and about the same with a Catana 47 Carbon infusion.
I learnt that while running or broad reaching they are retracted and leeway is used to yr favor. That's the easy part. My questions are;
Pull up the VMG, & CMG functions on any of your instruments, & experiment with your board settings. Then use'em when they best aid you based on the results of this.

-When docking undocking the boards are usually retracted and if there is a side wind in a tiny places, it becomes very difficult to control the boat. Remember daggerboard cats are usually lighter than the rest and tend to move sideway very fast. Do you deploy the daggerboards in such manoeuvres ?
They're designed to prevent leeway, non? Which likely would be helpful when docking.

-When beating, the book says that after 8-9 kts of speed both daggerboards should be fully retracted. Is this true ?
Burn the book, beat the author, & use one or both boards upwind. Always.

-At 100/80 degrees AWA, do you use them ?
Yep. Unless you love piss poor VMG & CMG.

-At close hauled, which one do you use , leeward, windward, or both ? I would assume fully pushed down in choppy sea and at lower speeds, and a bit less as you speed up, correct ?
Both when tacking a lot. The windward one only, on long stretches in stiff winds. So that if you're overpowered enough to lift a hull, the windward board lifts free of the water, & you slide sideways instead of capsizing. Since in such circumstances the leeward board would anchor you to the water, & provide a good pivot on which to capsize.

-when motor sailing, with the mainsail up and with bit of wind, if the daggerboards are retracted the A/P has difficulties in keeping the straight course.
Put'em down. And retract them in order to reduce their drag only as much as isn't a detriment to VMG, & CMG.

I've tried different combinations and didn't see much difference with different configurations. I've just noticed that the tacking and gybing also is much more easier and efficient when performed with the daggerboards down.
They're keels by another name, & thus vital to doing such manuvers.

I came to the conclusion that unless you are broad reaching, the daggerboards have to be used in some way or other.
Again, they're keels by another name. And thus need to be used much more often than not, even when broad reaching. So as noted above, compare your real world performance (VMG, & CMG) when up, down, & combinations there of. Including comparing said data to your Polars. And if you're not hitting or exceeding your Polars, start tweaking things, noting what works when & what doesn't.

Would appreciate any input form fellows that have more experience with these cats..

Cheers

Yeloya

Hope that helps. And hiring a coach (sailing master, or skipper) for a bit will do you worlds of good. Make you safer too, as you're on the steep part of the learning curve with said vessel. Such that she's powerful enough, & fast enough that you can venture into sailing dangerously without knowing it.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by rom

Do you mean like a lot ? Does it make such an obvious difference that you would like to have daggerboards on your very own boat ? I am really interested in your opinion on this !

Yes it does make an obvious difference, that's why I bought a Catana after 4 FP's. I don't want to trigger the debate daggerboard/fixed keel cats, there is no consensus between respected naval architects. It all depends on what you want to do. Fixed keels like yr L440 or Helia have many advantages over daggerboards. If you race, plan to sail in high lattitudes and are addicted sailor who trims the sails every moment , daggerboards cats are very rewarding. Instead of tacking to 100 or sometimes 110 degrees in choppy seas and light winds, these cats are tacking to 90, sometime less. Couple of degrees of better pointing + less leeway in a 100-200 miles upwind sailing makes a lot of difference. But this doesn't come free; less payload, less volume, more price..
Moreover, I believe Outremer and Catanas are stiffer, better made boats, but compared to similar size of Lagoon or FP, Outremer cost app 25-30%, Catana 20-25 % more.

Is it worth or not is yr call..

Cheers

Yeloya

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by rom

Do you mean like a lot ? Does it make such an obvious difference that you would like to have daggerboards on your very own boat ? I am really interested in your opinion on this !

The difference can be, & often is, enormous.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

The difference can be, & often is, enormous.

That's relative.. Let's remember that daggerboard cats are in any case slimmer, lighter hence better performing boats. In other words,if we add daggerboards to L 440 or 450 for example, how much increase in their upwind capability should we expect ?

Cheers

Yeloya

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by yeloya

That's relative.. Let's remember that daggerboard cats are in any case slimmer, lighter hence better performing boats. In other words,if we add daggerboards to L 440 or 450 for example, how much increase in their upwind capability should we expect ?

Cheers

Yeloya

Richard Woods has a stable of multihull designs, and is one of the few who had the same hull design built in both a LAR layout and a daggerboard. His impression is that the LAR looses 2 degrees of point and 5 degrees of leeway to a daggerboard.

Assuming the daggerboard boat tacks thru 90 degrees, and the LAR keel tacks thru 104. On a 100nm windward beat that means sailing 162nm with the LAR keel versus 141nm on the daggerboard boat. So just on distance sailed the daggerboard is going to be much faster. Assuming each boat averaged 8knots, the LAR gets there in 20.25 hours, versus 17.6 for the daggerboard. The LAR would have to average 9.2knots to get there at the same time btw.

But it's even worse for the LAR, the lower wetted surface and less pitching of the daggerboard means the actual SOG will be higher. How much higher depends on the conditions, but realistically in good sailing weather probably a knot or so. Meaning that on our sail if the LAR averages 8kn, and the daggerboard does 9kn... the daggerboard boat will arrive in 15.66 hours, or close enough to 75% of the time a size makes no difference.

So it's may be that the daggerboard may only be 12% faster SOG, but cuts sailing time by 25%.