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Old 14-10-2015, 08:49   #16
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Re: Cruising couple payload

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cottontop View Post
If you're going to cruise, get a cruising boat. If you're going to race, get a racing boat.

When you try to combine the two, you mostly end up with neither.

I know many cats are sold as "performance cruisers," but they give up a lot in comfort trying for performane (slender hulls with reduced living space, low headroom to reduce windage, unprotected helms, etc.), and when you load them up, the performance is lost.
It is as this poster said it. When you load up a performance boat she stops being performance.

You can escape this challenge by going big. 1T to a 3T performance boat is a kill, 1T to a 30T performance boat is a completely another story.

So if you want your 1T of toys AND go fast then you may opt for a big fast boat.

Payload is often best discussed with racers rather than with cruisers. Few cruisers ever know how much they actually carry. Most vastly underestimate the figure, at times to the point where their boats not only stop sailing but may become less safe too.

As a poster up the thread said one can sail round the world with a backpack's worth of personal gear. Starting with this attitude makes your boat happy and opens your mind to new and possibly enlightening (pun intended) experiences!

Take care. Sail light!

b.
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Old 14-10-2015, 15:41   #17
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Re: Cruising couple payload

I have to concur with the others on this.

If you include water and fuel I run around 2T of gear on my boat. I think this would be indicative of a cruising lifestyle.

There is no doubt adding this sort of load to a performance boat will impact its performance dramatically.

As yeloya says the difference is in flat seas and light winds. You will note that all videos of these boats sailing is in these conditions. In significant winds and heavy seas the crew will break before the boat and be pushing to slow the boat down especially over extended times like passages. You have to sleep sometime. In 20-30Kn and 2-3m seas you might get another 30-50 per day out of a boat. In heavier seas you will not see much difference to a production boat.

The real advantage in performance boats is in coastal sailing low winds and flatter seas where you can get from anchorage to anchorage in a shorter time and longer distances in daylight.

In this regard I have been looking for a faster boat for a year or so, but concluded I really need 60ft of performance boat to carry the cruising weight I need. This is a lot of cost to run and boat to handle in marinas.

If you ever get to Boatworks there are two chincogan 52 boats side by side for sale. One carries a 'cruising" kit and the other is barebones. I am led to believe the performance is significant. You might want to have a look to get a feel for the balance of comfort vs speed.
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Old 14-10-2015, 21:03   #18
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Re: Cruising couple payload

Thanks all.

A few of my assumptions:

A boat will sit at its design waterline when loaded up to its design payload.
A boat at its design waterline will perform as designed.
An overloaded boat will find its performance adversely affected.
A boat with no payload will have increased performance.
The amount by which performance is affected in both cases depends on the hull design and the amount of weight over or under.

Please correct me if any of those assumptions are wrong.

With those stated, I'm looking at a quantitative assessment of each design and the purpose of this thread was to help me understand the actual weights cruising couples are out there with.

If we add another assumption, that 2 tons will be sufficient for a cruising couple, that now means I can look at boats that have a payload of 2t+

The designs I'm looking at have payloads of:
1500kg (GForce 1400)
1850kg (GForce 1500)
2000kg (GForce 1400C)
2600kg (GForce 1500C)
2800kg (Arrow 1360)

2t would indicate that the Cruise designs and Arrow designs are where I should be looking. As much as I really want the quicker GForce they don't carry enough payload until you get to 55' ... now that would be a weapon, a GForce 1700 ...

Regarding performance cruiser v cruiser. I've done a lot of reading and research on these over the last decade. Including reading Gregor Tarjan and Chris White's books. I've been on a few boats to see the differences in hull widths and space available in the designs and read an awful lot of threads and articles on them. Given that in the designs I'm looking at, for me to get the payload I need I'll have a large enough boat, space wise, for a couple. I'm comfortable with the design compromises and happy to go the performance cruiser route.

Whaddya reckon?
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Old 14-10-2015, 22:42   #19
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Re: Cruising couple payload

You will not get a quantitative assessment on weight vs performance on cruisers forum, and frankly I do not think you will get it from the Schionnings. Far too many variables to consider, like weight distribution, capability of the crew, sea conditions etc.

There is a reason why Schionning design other classes of boat other than the gforce and that is because the gforce is a great racing boat but is heavily impacted by weight.

I am not saying the gforce could not be a great cruising boat but my view is that you need to be considering at least a 1700 and be happy to spend A$2.5 mill (or $2 mill if you want to buy the only second hand gforce on the market at present).
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Old 14-10-2015, 22:55   #20
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Re: Cruising couple payload

To be clear, I'm not looking for a quant assessment on weight V performance. I'm looking for what weight people actually carry while cruising so I can compare payloads. A quant assessment of load carrying, if you will.

The payloads/designs I've listed above are all Schionning Designs and there are a few options there that would carry 2t and not be overloaded. These would therefore perform as designed.
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Old 14-10-2015, 23:06   #21
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Re: Cruising couple payload

You keep referring to "as designed" but there are no performance criteria for "as designed". The other problem is that there are very few gforce boats at 1500 or less that are out cruising. They are mainly built for racing.

As I understand it the 1500C is a newish variant of the 1500 that allows for more load carrying capability. We know the performance of Mojo due to its racing record and it carries next to no weight. The performance of a 1500C will obviously be less but as to how much less is hard to specify at this time. My guess is it would be substantially impacted but I think it is a matter of plonking down your $1.5-$2 mill and finding out.
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Old 14-10-2015, 23:23   #22
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Re: Cruising couple payload

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
You keep referring to "as designed" but there are no performance criteria for "as designed". The other problem is that there are very few gforce boats at 1500 or less that are out cruising. They are mainly built for racing.

As I understand it the 1500C is a newish variant of the 1500 that allows for more load carrying capability. We know the performance of Mojo due to its racing record and it carries next to no weight. The performance of a 1500C will obviously be less but as to how much less is hard to specify at this time. My guess is it would be substantially impacted but I think it is a matter of plonking down your $1.5-$2 mill and finding out.
I'm not asking for performance criteria. Let's focus on payload. Which, after reviewing previous responses to the thread, I made an assumption that 2t would be enough for a cruising couple. That would make a number of the designs I listed above suitable for my purposes.
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Old 14-10-2015, 23:33   #23
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Re: Cruising couple payload

If you are in the market for that sort of money then you might consider a Tag 50. I am told a demo boat will come to Australia sometime next year.
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Old 14-10-2015, 23:38   #24
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Re: Cruising couple payload

An Arrow 1360 could be built for under $500k. A GForce 1400 for a wee bit more, depending on spec. I'm not looking to spend the amounts you're mentioning.
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Old 15-10-2015, 02:26   #25
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Re: Cruising couple payload

you should include your partner in research.

else you will be singlehander or worse (no boat).
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Old 15-10-2015, 02:58   #26
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Re: Cruising couple payload

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Originally Posted by tp12 View Post
under $500k. A GForce 1400 for a wee bit more, depending on spec. I'm not looking to spend the amounts you're mentioning.
A G Force 1400 built in Australia for around A$500k? I'm skeptical.

By yourself, in your backyard, not counting labour?

The ones I've seen constructed expertly by Noosa Marine cost several times that amount, as cwjohn points out. These are not "cruise ready" either.

Great point, Arsenelupiga re partner. Recently met the owners of a TAG60. Lovely couple, awesome boat. While discussing their extremely fast passage times with him, she was telling my wife how uncomfortable it was to travel at those speeds!
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Old 15-10-2015, 03:10   #27
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Re: Cruising couple payload

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Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
A G Force 1400 built in Australia for around A$500k? I'm skeptical.

By yourself, in your backyard, not counting labour?

The ones I've seen constructed expertly by Noosa Marine cost several times that amount, as cwjohn points out. These are not "cruise ready" either.

Great point, Arsenelupiga re partner. Recently met the owners of a TAG60. Lovely couple, awesome boat. While discussing their extremely fast passage times with him, she was telling my wife how uncomfortable it was to travel at those speeds!
when testing Catana in balearics, my wife was sick all the way when sailing quite smooth seas.

No issues, even in large seas with lagoon. different design i guess.
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Old 15-10-2015, 03:20   #28
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Re: Cruising couple payload

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
A G Force 1400 built in Australia for around A$500k? I'm skeptical.

By yourself, in your backyard, not counting labour?

The ones I've seen constructed expertly by Noosa Marine cost several times that amount, as cwjohn points out. These are not "cruise ready" either.

Great point, Arsenelupiga re partner. Recently met the owners of a TAG60. Lovely couple, awesome boat. While discussing their extremely fast passage times with him, she was telling my wife how uncomfortable it was to travel at those speeds!
No, not in Australia. I haven't spoken to Noosa Marine but I doubt very much they cost several times that much. One of their boats is currently for sale for under $700k and I wouldn't imagine the owner is plumping for a loss already. Maybe one and a half that.

Re: choosing with a partner, I'm single. If the future Mrs TP12 has strong desires away from my choice I guess I'll deal with that then and whatever we work out and are happy with, works.
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Old 15-10-2015, 03:33   #29
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Re: Cruising couple payload

Well, I have spoken to Julian in the last week costing a 1500C so I do know the real costs and you are dreaming.
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Old 15-10-2015, 03:40   #30
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Re: Cruising couple payload

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
Well, I have spoken to Julian in the last week costing a 1500C so I do know the real costs and you are dreaming.
We're not talking about a 1500C.

I'm here to talk about payload and what a typical cruising couple carries.

Also, if anyone thinks my assumptions are incorrect, please let me know. They are:

A boat will sit at its design waterline when loaded up to its design payload.
A boat at its design waterline will perform as designed.
An overloaded boat will find its performance adversely affected.
A boat with no payload will have increased performance.
The amount by which performance is affected in both cases depends on the hull design and the amount of weight over or under.
2t is a reasonable estimate for weight a cruising couple would carry.

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