Cruising Cat vs. Cruising Mono Performance

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Same here!.... I've yet to meet a yacht I didn't like!


Cheers!

p.s Hi Gideon, StarGazer was built in Holland from Corten Steel... BTW aren't you afraid with your new glow in the dark paint that you are going to start a lot of UFO sightings?? lol

We just might get a few UFO sighting sbut nthen at least the Newspapers have something to write about, The reason we are doing this is visibility.
Last year in Europe a total of 4 boats got run over at night and you know these big steamers do not even hear it happen. I like to be seen

Greetings

[Joli]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Well yes, you did make a good point about multi performance. The multi gained 200 metres on you in 4 minutes. Going to windward. Where mono's rule. Apparently.

Yes, CC44 he was faster but lower. At the end of the day we were quicker around the course. Triangle W/L. If the race had been point to point close reaching to broad reaching there is no doubt in my mind the Fboat would have been quicker. Horses for courses

It is very dificult to asses the speed of a different boats unless you race/sail them on the same course. IMO

Look at Gideons polars for the Fastcat 435. His best downwind VMG in 16 would be maybe 8? The Fastcat simply cannot go any deeper or faster then the poalr allows. A mono like a J44 would easily match that and/or maybe be quicker? If you compare J44 to a more cruisy cat like a Lagoon 44 the J44 will be much quicker downwind. I would guess the same ratio would exist upwind between the J44 and th Fastcat 435. On a reach the Fastcat 435 would be much faster ~2-4 knots then the J44 but I don't know about the Lagoon 44?

Anyway, real world comparisons are the best indicator of speed.

[catty]

Joli, your dead right, real world comparisons are the best indicator.

Regarding your earlier post of the cruising mono/ muti rule infringement ,
I would be more inclined to think the multi guy was just a rude ignorant tosser, rather than it being a mono /multi thing.
When we first sold our mono and built a multi many years ago most yachties were friendly to each other regardless of their boat type. These days with so many people new to sailing ,choosing multis , and bringing there suburban attitudes, and ignorance with them its no wonder the divide is getting wider. With boat builders using slogans like "if its not a cat its a dog" and yacht club bar talk always repeating heresay and not fact about multihull sailing characteristics its no wonder.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by catty

Joli, your dead right, real world comparisons are the best indicator.

.

agree - her some data on the bris to gladstone race



Brisbane to gladstone 300 miles approx
Line honours monos
1995 Colorado Bobsled R Bird 30:25:11
1996 Hammer of Queensland A Bloore 41:15:33
1997 Foxtel Amazon P Walker 32:34:52
1998 Hammer of Queensland A Bloore 42:21:32
1999 Nortress G-Wizz R Rayner 29:39:10
2000 Nortress G-Wizz R Rayner 41:13:25
2001 Grundig Xena S Langman 21:44:39
2002 Grundig S Langman 30:36:06
2003 Grundig S Langman 23:06:15
2004 Skandia G Wharrington 20:24:50
2005 AAPT S Langman 35:08:53
2006 Heaven Can Wait P Hollis 35:16:32
2007 Ichi Ban M Allen 22:20:45


Multihull history
n 1993, a race record of 20 hours 50 minutes was set in* by Paul Nudd on his catamaran XL2. Unfortunately for Paul, the record is not recognised by the World Speed Sailing Council as he went to the aid of another yacht and his adjusted time would not be officially recorded by them.*
In 2004, Victorian catamaran skipper Martyn Riley steered Raw Nerve to a record-breaking line-honours win at a remarkable average speed of 16.28 knots. Raw Nerve reached speeds to 28 knots to complete the race in a record-smashing 18hr 55min 9secs 
“That was one of the rides that most ocean racing sailors dream about,” Riley said.
"And to complete the race with a record is very special.”


AND the monos are in the main boats that cost many many many tiems more than the multis.

And the winning multi wont be running a motor all the way to gladstone to run the hydraulics for the canting keel - the winning mono almost certainly will.

[catty]

Hmmmmm Factor , I think your posting on the wrong thread.

Don't take my word for it, open your eyes and look like a woman at the thread title. The use of the word " cruising" is a dead give away. I'm not sure anyone is saying a cruising cat is slower downwind than a similar sized cruising mono its the upwind bit thats the problem.

PS ...the brisbane gladstone is primarily a downwind race. As was pointed out in another thread, the 2007 race, in predominantly fresh (fresh enough to capsize two cats)downwind conditions , the average speed of the 14 multihull finishers was approx 10 knots for the 308nm race, and the average length was approx 12 meters. So if these optomized vessels with full racing crews can only average 10 knots what chance have we with a crew consisting of mum dad and the little kiddies got of averaging more than 6 or so for a cruising season?

[gramos]

fastcat , i have to applaud you on that interior , its beautiful ! i now have something in common with Fastcats , a maple interior , ! now i need to work on the speed thing .... ah , one thing , we never see any tunnel views of the fastcat ,i saw a photo ,somewhere, and there were a lot of protusions under the bridgedeck. have these been eradicated on the new models ?

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by gramos

fastcat , i have to applaud you on that interior , its beautiful ! i now have something in common with Fastcats , a maple interior , ! now i need to work on the speed thing .... ah , one thing , we never see any tunnel views of the fastcat ,i saw a photo ,somewhere, and there were a lot of protusions under the bridgedeck. have these been eradicated on the new models ?

Hallo Gramos

The only protrusions under the bridgedeck are the bridgedeck stringers and the bottom of these are still 750 mm from the water.
In the rear we have a protrusion in which we have our California king sized bed but even this protrusion is still 550 mm from the water and we have limited bridgedeck slamming

I have attached an old picture of the prototype when launched first.

BTW thank for the compliment Maple is a very nice light and spacious type of wood

[ssullivan]

Gideon,

Looking at your photos above, she looks quite fast.

Also, looking at the mini-keel/rudder/saildrive setup, she is not beachable?

[David M]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

Hallo Gramos

The only protrusions under the bridgedeck are the bridgedeck stringers and the bottom of these are still 750 mm from the water.
In the rear we have a protrusion in which we have our California king sized bed but even this protrusion is still 550 mm from the water and we have limited bridgedeck slamming

I have attached an old picture of the prototype when launched first.

BTW thank for the compliment Maple is a very nice light and spacious type of wood

Gideon,
Which design is this boat and is this the latest of this design?

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by ssullivan

Gideon,

Looking at your photos above, she looks quite fast.

Also, looking at the mini-keel/rudder/saildrive setup, she is not beachable?

Hallo Sullivan , yes she is beachable and can stand on both the rudders and mini keels without a problem, each keel is designed to take 8000 kilo,s of weight and the rudders both from carbon fiber each 4000 kilo and I have done it many times

Greetings

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by David M

Gideon,
Which design is this boat and is this the latest of this design?

Hallo David

She is designed by Angelo Lavranos and myself

This is the proof of concept FastCat 435 launched the end of 2004
We have now stretched her to 46 feet 9 inches or in meter 13.90 meters and widened to 7.48 and she is also 40 mm higher
The protrusion on the underside now have a bigger radius of 200 mm making the whole stronger and even fewer waves hit it now.
The boat show here weighted 7900 kilo ready to sail and now we are down to 4800 ready to sail
Greetings

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

Hallo Sullivan , yes she is beachable and can stand on both the rudders and mini keels without a problem, each keel is designed to take 8000 kilo,s of weight and the rudders both from carbon fiber each 4000 kilo and I have done it many times

Greetings

Wow! Very strong little keels and rudders. Good job!

[44'cruisingcat]

Hey Sean, is your boat able to be beached?

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

By no means would Seans new cat be a tearaway upwind, compared to more modern, lighter, daggerboard equipped boats, but compared to monohulls with similar design briefs (ie full or cutaway full keelers) it does "just fine"

Yup.... this is what I was getting at alright. It's no pointer, but then neither are the full or cutaway full keel monos in the same cruising category. I did find my cruising cat to be surprisingly similar in performance (or lack thereof) to heavy displacement, full keel cruising monos when going to weather.

When going on a reach or downwind, my tiny little 10M (34ft) crusing cat was able to achieve speeds of my last boat, a 45ft mono.

This post was really intended to point out this fact, which surprised the heck out of me. I had thought the cat would be faster than the mono downwind (by a lot), and be a futile effort at going to windward. As it turns out, the particular cat I bought was not as extreme. It does the same speed as my last mono reaching and running, and does the speeds of say... a Vagabond ketch or something to windward.

I think... and I could be wrong here, that I outperform a Morgan Out Island to windward with it!

[ssullivan]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Hey Sean, is your boat able to be beached?

With ease! Oddly, there are no keels at all, and the rudders are skeg-hung. Initially, I thought the "no keels" bit was going to make her horrible to windward. But... for some reason, she doesn't slide slip much to start, until conditions get bad. Here is a photo of the underside of this particular cat.

Oh yeah.. and the saildrives draw less than the hulls and/or skegs, so they are well protected in beaching. I don't think I would have bought a cat that didn't beach, given my natural aversion to marina fees! ha ha

PS: These are sistership photos.