Cruising Cat Sail Trim

[Palarran]

I go by the saying "When in doubt, let it out". Then I trim in until my max speed is reached. Generally my traveler starts out 10" to leeward of center though and goes out quickly as the wind angle increases. At 90 degrees, the traveler will be a little more then half way between center and max out. At 120 degrees, it's all out and the sheet is also being let out slightly. My main sheet in general stays fairly tight until I can't let out the traveler anymore then I'll let it out.

Palarran's jib is a self tacker so it's smaller than most. It does add quite a bit of power to the sail plan though and we probably spend as much time trimming it as the main. The two things I'm working on with the jib is balancing the helm and powering up the main sail slot. It would be nice to have more ability to control the clew angle but it isn't feasible without adding some serious deck hardware.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by monte

... How do you set up a barber haul for the jib?
Do you use a block and tackle or run it back to a winch?
Does it attach to the clew or the sheet?
When hard on the wind I would usually have the jib sheet pretty tight, I can't imagine a barber haul having much effect on the sheet ...

Is it more useful slightly off the wind when the sheet is eased a bit?
I do notice that when the genoa is set well at the top, it seems to be over sheeted lower down, so I guess this is where the barber haul can really help.
Thanks again.
...

Depends a bit on the boat of course but, I secure mine to the clew then thru a snatch block mid ship, then to the turning block for the spin sheet, then to winch as needed. I really need to add a clutch to make it easier to manage winch use. Well off the wind I remove it from the snatch block and use the barber hauler as the sheet. Close hauled you dont need it on most cats because the track angle is OK. As you fall off then its needed.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by monte

Very interesting 2w. Are most of those observations and adjustments made by looking at the sails, or looking at boat speed or a combination of both? We only have leech telltales on the main, it might be worth adding some mid sail?
On our last cat (lagoon 380) we experimented with traveller positions and found very little difference to performance. Admittedly it can be hard to tell when boat speed is going from say 7-7.5 knots as you surf waves a little, but generally found nothing that warranted traveller adjustment. For me seeing a speed increase of .2 k would warrant adjustment. At times coming into a port after dropping the main and sailing under headsail alone we might just drop from 7 to 6k so I'm curious as to others experiences with actual performance.
I will try all of these suggestions tomorrow.
Generally with the main I leave the traveller centred and ease the sheet till the leech telltales are flowing. Usually the top ones will flow better than the lowest because of the sail twist.
As the sail nears the shrouds I will ease the traveller and tighten the main sheet to keep it off the shroud. I have tried leaving the main tight and easing the traveller as the wind comes more on the beam (as I would on a hobie cat) but haven't seen any performance improvement.

I think 2w has it right. Monte, I'm really having trouble understanding how you can leave the traveler centered and ease the sheet out without the leech massively twisting off. Is it possible that you are leaving the vang tight all the time so that you are actually controlling the leech twist with the vang but you don't realize it? If so, then the traveler and mainsheet do the same job - they just control the angle of attack of the sail.

I believe this is called vang sheeting. I often use vang sheeting due to my unusual mainsheet set-up. It puts some extra forces on the gooseneck, but is otherwise a very simple way to control the sail.

[monte]

Thanks CW, we don't have a vang, so yes the sail twists. That's why I'm curious about twisters settings where they seem to promote more twist by pulling the traveller to windward from 30degreeas to 90 degrees. Also as I said I don't notice much difference in performance by using the traveller, but I'll experiment with the suggestions here over the next couple of days.

[belizesailor]

(deleted)

[belizesailor]

While I prefer to use the traveller, mostly because I think it is technically correct on a multi, I don't usually notice a big difference on cruising cats either.

On high performance multis it is much more noticeable. In fact, since the wind is rarely much aft of beam, the traveler can be used as the primary means of setting angle of attack and the mainsheet just used for fine tuning. I used to race on a boat that had a secondary set of tweaker blocks rigged in the mainsheet set up. These gave you an 8:1 purchase and allowed very fine adjustment of the trim. We used the traveller and this tweaker set up almost exclusively.

On typical cruising cats barberhauling the jib has a much more noticeable effect. On my boat, I can usually hear/see the wake change as I'm trimming it...big difference.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by monte

Thanks CW, we don't have a vang, .

Most multis don't need a vang, thats what the traveller is for. Monos use vangs as the traveller isnt wide enough or well placed enough to get the right combination of angle and mainsheet.

[StarryHorizons]

Alright, I'm going to preface this by saying I'm certainly no expert in sail trim, however, I am interested in trying to put together some general diagrams that can be used on our boat to help give guidance for sail trim with the caveat that nothing is absolute and there should always be adjustments for light/heavy conditions. But perhaps this could be a starting guide that others might find useful as well.

It has been well established in this thread that the traveller is key to trimming the mainsail on a cruising cat and I like the way that Factor put it "Traveller Out and Sheet On". My experience has been this works well, until the traveller is all the way out, then you have to watch your sheet and make sure the main isn't resting against the spreaders.

Our current boat has a self tacking jib, and I haven't played a lot with a barber hauler but I can certainly see the advantages.

All that being said, I've tried to put together general diagrams of sail trim on different points of sail for cats. Our new boat will also have a screecher and an asymmetric spinnaker that will share a continuous line furler (top down furling for the spinnaker) so I've also included a single diagram for those more to detail the AWS and AWA the sails should be used at.

I would be extremely grateful if everyone could take a look and let me know either how wrong I am, or if there are any tweaks I could do to make things better.



Thanks,

David

[tomfl]

Interesting PDF thanks for posting.

Just as an aside I have a Seawind like Factor and frequently sail with both my self tacking jib and screecher. I always notice a big difference in speed after I get both of the slots right.

[StarryHorizons]

Originally Posted by tomfl

Interesting PDF thanks for posting.

Just as an aside I have a Seawind like Factor and frequently sail with both my self tacking jib and screecher. I always notice a big difference in speed after I get both of the slots right.

Thanks Tomfl. I'm glad you found it interesting rather than completely off base!

On our Helia, the continuous line furler on the bowsprit and the genoa furler are pretty close so getting the slot right may be more trouble than it's worth. After we get familiar with the boat, we may give it a try though!

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by StarryHorizons

Alright, I'm going to preface this by saying I'm certainly no expert in sail trim, however, I am interested in trying to put together some general diagrams that can be used on our boat to help give guidance for sail trim with the caveat that nothing is absolute and there should always be adjustments for light/heavy conditions. But perhaps this could be a starting guide that others might find useful as well.

It has been well established in this thread that the traveller is key to trimming the mainsail on a cruising cat and I like the way that Factor put it "Traveller Out and Sheet On". My experience has been this works well, until the traveller is all the way out, then you have to watch your sheet and make sure the main isn't resting against the spreaders.

Our current boat has a self tacking jib, and I haven't played a lot with a barber hauler but I can certainly see the advantages.

All that being said, I've tried to put together general diagrams of sail trim on different points of sail for cats. Our new boat will also have a screecher and an asymmetric spinnaker that will share a continuous line furler (top down furling for the spinnaker) so I've also included a single diagram for those more to detail the AWS and AWA the sails should be used at.

I would be extremely grateful if everyone could take a look and let me know either how wrong I am, or if there are any tweaks I could do to make things better.



Thanks,

David

Very cool diagram. You can probably get some use out of barberhauling on a beam reach as well, but it might not be worth the effort unless it's always set up and easy to put on.

I'm surprised you carry your assym to 25 knots. Either you have a smaller heavier one than I'm used to or you're braver than I'm used to!

[StarryHorizons]

Originally Posted by cwyckham

Very cool diagram. You can probably get some use out of barberhauling on a beam reach as well, but it might not be worth the effort unless it's always set up and easy to put on.

I'm surprised you carry your assym to 25 knots. Either you have a smaller heavier one than I'm used to or you're braver than I'm used to!

Thanks for the additional suggestion! This is something I'm going to have to play with as our boat won't come set up with an easy solution for a barber hauler.

And I must admit that we haven't actually used the assym yet. Our boat is still under construction and won't be done until October. The 5-25 knot AWS range was given to me by Doyle but I think we'll be bringing it down before we reach the upper limit.

[Blue Skye]

Nice pdf David. Thanks for sharing!

[monte]

Looks good david. Interesting not many seem to agree with twisters or lagoons settings of having the traveller to windward. We haven't had a chance to tweak settings over the past week as it's all been downwind sailing with the parasailor or broad reaches.
One comments I have is that it is much easier to trim the main sheet quickly than to adjust the traveller, which requires taking in the leeward out haul as you release the windward. Ok it's only a minutes trimming and worthwhile if the wind is at a steady angle, but constant adjustments are slower and as I said, not noticeable in boat speed.
I will refer to your settings next time we sail and give some feedback.
PS. Don't expect much sailing other than Downwind along the Spanish, Portuguese coast!

[StarryHorizons]

Originally Posted by monte

PS. Don't expect much sailing other than Downwind along the Spanish, Portuguese coast!

Thanks Monte! I'm certainly expecting a lot of downwind sailing, which is why we ordered our Screecher and Asymmetric early so we could get them to France before we left.

And this is just speculation, but if Lagoon recommends having the traveller to windward, perhaps they are trying to be extra conservative by encouraging more twist in the main to keep it slightly depowered?