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Old 08-10-2013, 06:12   #16
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

Totally agree with everything above (Ozskippers post), ....weight is the enemy of all well designed Cats and I am becoming more fanatical (which worries me a bit...) of everything I put on board.
When I splash from a layup and the boat is lightly loaded , the differences in sailing response and how the boat feels is very noticable and addicting.
I wish I could figure out how to cruise without 240 gals of water, 240 gals of fuel, 200 xtra feet of 3/8 chain ... etc etc.

Bob
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:13   #17
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

Bob,
Though I snipped this from your post my comments aren't directed at you but at the 'mantra' the quote reflects.
Just for discussion purposes while referring to the OP's needs.

"weight is the enemy of all well designed Cats"

To experienced sailors a lot is contained in those few words but I'd like to expand a little.
Excess weight is the enemy of ALL boats and all boats are sensitive to it, no matter how well designed.
The overwhelming majority of production cats are dual purpose in design, they must serve as charter boats and cruisers, luxury or otherwise.
The compromise between speed, carrying capacity and cost therefore exists.
They are not designed specifically as long range cruisers with the ability to carry large weights quickly.
Many can make a very good go of it but as Bob said he must compromise ie trade off speed/handling for what is a reasonable cruising load. [and the C471 is one of the best IMO]
So I agree of course that most, if not all, production cats load up quickly and are unduly sensitive to reasonable loads.
Here's where I disagree ie the well designed bit.
These cats are well designed for their purpose and that is not full on performance cruising.
Well designed, full on weight carrying [5tons payload] performance cruising cats are out there but from custom builds.
The Crowther I linked earlier is similar in LOA to a Catana 471 yet carries a 5t payload and very high performance. Check its specs. prof, built.
Another specifically designed perf cruiser is "Adagio" designed by M&M, prof. built. very fast, very well designed and carries quite a load. Check their blog for details.
No blog for this example, I hope you'll all take my word for it or a google may bring up an old advert. "Cables Length 2" designed by Ron Givens, prof built.
Givens designs fast, strong boats with range and carrying capacity to cruise 'out there' for extended periods of time.
If I recall correctly it carries the same weight as the Crowther and like 'Key of D' and 'Adagio' moves in little wind and can cruise in the teens, fully loaded.
These are not backyard boats, they're from respected designers and they are purpose designed, they are definitely not sluggish when at design loads.
I have seen all three, they are beautiful boats. I heard some Orams can carry more weight than comparable production cats but have no first hand knowledge of them.
My point is there are well designed cats out there that can carry much more weight than a production cat of even larger size and still be a true performance cruiser.
So the mantra, while true, doesn't come close to telling the full story, especially for a new cruiser.
If you got this far, thanks for reading and I repeat Bob, this was not directed at you or your cat.
Cheers,
Mac
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Old 11-10-2013, 08:27   #18
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

Design does matter in weight carrying ability, but even more important is construction. Most of the boats you list use more expensive construction techniques than the typical production cruisers.

Light construction = more payload. Light construction (with proper scantlings) = more money (and probably more skill).

Mark
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Old 11-10-2013, 10:57   #19
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

Hi Mac
You have presented a good analysis of my quote "weight is the enemy of all well designed Cats" , but I would disagree on some of your points,....(you probably expected this anyways... )

I agree that excess weight is the enemy of all boats (monos, multis etc) but for poorly designed boats... ( "poorly designed " as it relates to hull design,rig/sailplan and performance objectives) , the addition of excess weight, or "cruising weight", only makes a slow ,poor performing boat ...."slower". The argument there might suggest that excess weight or cruising weight really doesn't matter other than it might make these designs potentially unsafe in active long range use.

With regards to my boat and Catanas in general, Catanas are not production Cats... as aren't Outremers, Switch, St Francis, Manta and others. Their price, build #'s, design goals etc don't fit the "Production Cat" business model as compared to Lagoon, Fountain Pajot , Leopard and others.

There are Catanas used in charter certainly... , Dream Yacht Charter for example ...but this was done to give people a chance to try out their models and help maintain the companys viability... as designing,tooling and maintaining trades and the skilled workforce is very expensive, continually challenging , (as I'm sure you are aware) ... Catana certainly has had mixed success as a viable Cat builder in its history as has the others mentioned above. These brands are more accurately descibed as Semi-Custom builds in very limited production runs.
My model, the 471/472 built from the years 1997 to 2006, only achieved 86 in build # ,and "no" two are alike in features and layout, thats less than 10 per year and the other sizes: 431's, 521's etc are similar or less.

The 471/472 primary design goal was to be a true "Performance Cruiser" and that is reflected on every aspect of its design, from the Carbon Fiber standing rig, hull contruction, sail handling layout, size of sail plan, outboard helms, bridgedeck clearance etc. Those aren't typically "Production Boat" features. The $price for "trying" to achieve this primary design goal (it certainly is far from perfect, has many compromises and faults but still a great boat...) was very high, making these boats expensive ( too expensive as perceived by many and they are probably right....) thus their very limited build #'s. The other brands follow this same pattern with even fewer build #'s in most.

The cruising weight of a fully loaded 471/472 typically falls between 26,000 - 30,000 lbs(sometimes even more) , depending on what owners perceive as "necessary gear". Thats not "lightweight" by any stretch of the imagination but its a "reasonable" cruising weight for the physical size of the 471 which generally is bigger than many other 46'-47' boats of that era.
It is typically better in size to weight ratio than "Production Cat" sizes 47' (or usually even much smaller sizes) and compares favourably to the other semi custom builds. This certainly compares favourably to the Crowther 46 ( in specs,design) which you present and that design is very similar to the 471, owing to both having the same designers' input and philosophy.

I would not call the Crowther "very high performance" as you describe,... that is reserved for the likes of say Gunboats with their associated "multi" million dollar price tags and high strung , technical nature , or Schionning designs, some Chris White designs and others that you certainly would know.

Adagio is a beautiful custom Cat, no argument there.. but it is a "much" larger Cat at 52', which should have a greater cruising weight carrying capacity, higher performance speeds etc.
It was also conceived with a fully "open chequebook" and "lets really try and get it right" attitude, very unique as a "Performance Custom Cruiser" and most successful Performance Custom Cruisers follow this pattern. Many others fail and waste "lots" of money and time, incur huge stress,lawsuits etc.
It still follows "Newicks' Law" as do all "Custom Cats"... or any Multis...

My lament in the post above fully aplies to any of the boats you have detailed . And I am not talking about "excess weight" with regards to fuel,water, chain etc ,
I am just remarking on how "any" boat would feel and and perform without fuel, water, chain etc on board.
My cruising weight at around 27,500-28,000 with what I deem as "necessary cruising gear" including fuel,water,chain etc still allows me to have an excellent "Performance Cruiser" IMHO... It would easily compare to the Crowther 46 you mention if I had the same sail inventory , which I regretably dont have yet.


Bob
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:40   #20
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Design does matter in weight carrying ability, but even more important is construction. Most of the boats you list use more expensive construction techniques than the typical production cruisers.
Light construction = more payload. Light construction (with proper scantlings) = more money (and probably more skill).
Mark
Mark, that was my point [which I thought I explained] about the differences between the weight carrying ability of the purpose designed performance [for] cruising examples given and production cats.
I was trying to express my opinion as to why the 'Mantra' and the generalizing of 'cats' doesn't tell the full story.
Not by Bob but the oft stated phrase!
I believe I clearly stated these were not factory cats, also a costs comparison between these and the retail price of a Catana, a Lagoon, Outy, Dolphin etc is interesting, the buyers first 60-100K goes to the agent, not into the boat.

Bob, I am sorry you thought I was quoting you, I did say that though I lifted the phrase from you post, it was the phrase I was addressing, not you or your C471 per se.

I am fully aware of the nature of Catana's, Outremer's and say Dolphin's etc marketing models of 'semi-custom performance cruiser' builds.
I'm not aware of any models however that allow the purchaser to customize the hulls, they are from stock molds and produced on a production line aren't they?
The higher end and not clones yes but still a production line.
I know the purchaser can order options on rigs and internal content but they are still built on a production line, hence my use of 'production' as a descriptor.
You are right, I did not and do not regard the Gunboats as examples of regular cruisers and I also didn't consider Chris White's excellent designs for two reasons 1/ they're not all made in the one shipyard and are more custom builds 2/ they don't seem to reflect the point I was trying to make ie a larger weight carrying design by comparison to factory cats designs.
In closing let me repeat, I was not quoting you or directly addressing the content of your post and I didn't infer in any way that proper cruising weight was unsafe.
I happen to be really fond of Catana's, I've missed out on three C531s in last few years, 1/California, 2/Med Fr. 3/Bulgaria and have seriously considered the C471.
Cheers to you both,
Mac
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Old 12-10-2013, 02:36   #21
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

small point to add but I believe there are 2 categories of yachts. 1 Off, and production.
you can sub categorize those but that's all there is. Its either built from scratch from plans or its built using existing molds and the components. You could say brand x is a more popular chartering yacht, whereas brand z is more focused on livaboard/cruising/racing or whatever, but they are both 'production boats' (or not)
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Old 12-10-2013, 04:22   #22
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After reading all the cat threads and arguements for,against and otherwise i have come to the conclusion that cats just dont do the job or cut it.
They are according to all the comments unsafe,too wide,too fast ,too slow, too much,they flip over in any gust above 15 knots,too much windage,not enough shade,more maintenance than a mono,too French ,Too South African,not enough storage,too much storage, too social,too hot ,too cold, heavier sails, slow in light winds,too expensive too dock in any marina, nearly forgot that flybridges on cats will give you altitude sickness oh and too comfortable for real sailors!
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Old 12-10-2013, 05:25   #23
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

exactly Peter!
See you soon back in sunny Torquay. Have you been sailing your deathmachine lately?
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:22   #24
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

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After reading all the cat threads and arguements for,against and otherwise i have come to the conclusion that cats just dont do the job or cut it.
Thats what the Mono guys have been repeatedly trying to get thru to you(why dont you get it? ...they say) You were sleeping at the wheel... just like the rest of us....

Mac and Monte , you are correct of course... Catana and the other brands I listed are not "one offs" but built on production lines from the same molds , therefore "Production Cats" in the truest sense of the word but with more of a semi-custom approach to build and marketing.
This is certainly a contributing factor as to why most have "failed"... some reborn and continue to struggle as viable Cat builders in todays challenging landscape.
Mac , I understand you were not addressing me directly as you discussed the concept of weight, performance and custom design/build (which you clearly gave me heads up for ) and I did not feel any inference towards my boat but I certainly did launch into a lengthy focus/defense on my model.... my apologies to everyone

When someone does manage to break "Newicks Law" , the mono guys will really have to admit defeat... Yes?

Bob
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:25   #25
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

Quote:
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After reading all the cat threads and arguements for,against and otherwise i have come to the conclusion that cats just dont do the job or cut it.
They are according to all the comments unsafe,too wide,too fast ,too slow, too much,they flip over in any gust above 15 knots,too much windage,not enough shade,more maintenance than a mono,too French ,Too South African,not enough storage,too much storage, too social,too hot ,too cold, heavier sails, slow in light winds,too expensive too dock in any marina, nearly forgot that flybridges on cats will give you altitude sickness oh and too comfortable for real sailors!
Yeah, that is why we love to sail (not motor) our boats so much!?
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:15   #26
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Quote:
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exactly Peter! See you soon back in sunny Torquay. Have you been sailing your deathmachine lately?
Sailed back from Melb to Geelong last weekend,great winds too.

Time to pull the floating coffin out of the water to do the antifoul in the next few weeks.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:33   #27
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

When reading threads like this - and similar on other fora - one could lead to believe, that "performance cruisers" like Catana 471 and Outreemers are between 1,5 and 2 times faster than out and out cruisers like Lagoons, Fountaine Pajots, Leopards etc. Well - they are not.

In my experience the difference is between 10 and 25% - if the crew have the same sailing experience and the sails are of the same quality. (But most often they are not.)

When I race against identical Lagoon 380s (with sails identical to mine) - that have experienced monohullers as crew, my boat is about 30% faster.

The crew, sails, loading is more important than the make of the cat.
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:14   #28
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

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When reading threads like this - and similar on other fora - one could lead to believe, that "performance cruisers" like Catana 471 and Outreemers are between 1,5 and 2 times faster than out and out cruisers like Lagoons, Fountaine Pajots, Leopards etc. Well - they are not.

Please give an example(s) from this thread, or any thread in the entire Multihulls section of this Forum or MH4US (which is becoming quite popular) where that claim has been made ,implied or suggested.

In my experience the difference is between 10 and 25% - if the crew have the same sailing experience and the sails are of the same quality. (But most often they are not.)


When I race against identical Lagoon 380s (with sails identical to mine) - that have experienced monohullers as crew, my boat is about 30% faster.

The crew, sails, loading is more important than the make of the cat.
I guess those "experienced" monohullers don't know how to trim sails or sail to trim, or maybe it might have been cement blocks left in the bilges?
Bob
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:34   #29
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I think you will find Catanas need a bit of wind to get going, thats at least what the owners have told me
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Old 12-10-2013, 11:57   #30
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Re: Cruising Cat for the Tropics

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I think you will find Catanas need a bit of wind to get going, thats at least what the owners have told me
Agreed,... anything above 4-5 knots typically... which applies to Any sailboat.

Bob
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