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Old 09-09-2015, 09:37   #16
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

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Originally Posted by Sailingcouple13 View Post
All my halyards and main and jib are inside right at the helm, I will have my sails down before he gets to his mast.
Who goes to the mast anymore to do anything? (except handle light air sails)

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Old 09-09-2015, 20:14   #17
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

Have you looked at the TPI Lagoon 42? It rarely slams, good protection at the helm, 360 degree visablilty from inside the saloon and easy access to sail controls from saloon or cockpit. Yes, it relies on Eisenglass at the helm, but in the Caribbean, we found that to be just fine.

We have sailed on our TPI Lagoon 42 in the Caribbean, Bahamas and US east coast for 13 years spending 5 to 9 months at a time on board each year. So far, it's the best boat in it's size and price range that I know of for that kind of cruising.
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Old 10-09-2015, 02:24   #18
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

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I like it. What design is your boat? Photos? Recently Gunboat and another builder have done this but I am not aware of any older designs.
Mike,

Have a look at the Broadblue Rapier 550. Not an older design and not to everyones taste but an interesting concept.


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Old 10-09-2015, 03:13   #19
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

Mike,
It is a Voyage 45 cabriolet. Launched in Oct 2004. Maybe tempted to sell, theres that dangerous 55 Gunboat that has my eye..

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Old 10-09-2015, 15:34   #20
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

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First, Disclosure: I have never owned a large Cat sailboat, but I have owned large power boats, and Medium size Cats. I will be looking for a cat in the 42-48' range for my wife & I to take extended 3-6 month cruises on in the Caribbean. Dreams of around the world have pretty much been deep sixed with the state of chaos existing out there.

I have always loved Cat Sailboats, and have come close to purchasing one a few times, but the stars never aligned. I have kept up with the manufacturers, and studied them for about the last 10 years. I have been to many boat shows, sailed on a few, and been on too many to count. I even considered designing my own and having it built by Alwoplast in Chili.

Maybe the fine folks and owners on this site can tell me why the things at the top of my pet peeve list, aren't on almost every boat.

#1 (The most important) Inside Helm with steering & controls for the motors, and a complete nav setup. This is common on almost all medium to large power boats. It is great to be up top in the wind when the sun is out. There is nothing better than a fine day at sea in good weather, and nothing worse than a bad day at sea in crappy weather. I know dealers sometimes talk about enclosing helms with isenglass or similar, but you are still out in the elements, and the seam tear & give way in the high winds right when you least expect or need it. (experience talking here) Simply lower & secure all sails at the approach of bad weather, get inside and secure the hatches. You are dry & warm and not in any danger out on deck.

Full weather protection at the helm is paramount for anyone that is actually going to cruise vs. day sail. To that end I believe cockpit helm stations offer the best of protection, visibility, and low CG and windage vs. flybridge and outboard helms.

Nothing wrong with soft enclosures at all if properly made I have had them last for a decade without problems. Going below in most designs and attempting to pilot from there rarely offers enough visibility and no access to sail handling. Good examples of the right cockpit layout would be, St. Francis, Antares, Voyage, Manta etc.

#2 Flush hatches. Every boater/sailor has stubbed a toe on a hatch. Lagoon 500 was one of the first I know of to have them, followed by the 450 & the Leopard 4800. But they will still have a standard raised hatch at the most forward position.

The problem with flush hatches (mostly developed for racing boats) is there propensity to leak if everything is not just right, since water rolling down the deck can cover it. I have actually preferred to put framed hatches on an actual embossment on deck just to keep them higher then the path of heavy water draining down the deck. Never felt they were a tripping hazard enough to warrant flush mounted hatches.

#3 Bridge Deck clearance Does anyone like the booming sound on the bridgedeck? Most boats seem to only have 2-3' I like 4-5' like on the gun boat.

Gunboats don't have anywhere near that kind of clearance, (look at the new 55 from the aft end) few designs actually have three feet. 32" seems to be a good minimum number for something in the mid 40 ft. range and more is better to a point where it starts to create too much freeboard, I would say for 45-50 ft that would be about 40" max.

#4 I know size plays a roll here, but better access to the engines can be designed. Under the bed? Really? Bleed over heat and fumes when you have to check it? While we're at it, a storage area for dive compressor & tanks. I have seen this done on larger power cats.
I certainly agree a separate engine room has advantages in terms of safety with a true water tight bulkhead. But unless it offers true standing headroom, I would prefer it to be under the bunk since there you would at least have protection from the weather. Most designs that have a separate compartment without the ability to close the hatch are not practical at sea or in inclement weather.
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Old 10-09-2015, 15:49   #21
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

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Full weather protection at the helm is paramount for anyone that is actually going to cruise vs. day sail. To that end I believe cockpit helm stations offer the best of protection, visibility, and low CG and windage vs. flybridge and outboard helms.
Yes, it is indeed a wonder that I ever make it back alive.

Dave
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Old 10-09-2015, 17:14   #22
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

With my isolated engine rooms with exterior access it's amazing we have not sunk yet. Oh thats right cats don't sink.

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Old 10-09-2015, 20:00   #23
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

When I was searching for a boat I was reluctant to consider one with engine access under the bunks. Now that I have such a boat I can say my reluctance was unfounded.

There is no diesel smell in the cabin, and the noise of the engine running is muffled by the insulation and thick matresses. My partner finds she can still sleep with it running. But when motoring for extended times I usually run on just one engine anyway, thus entirely eliminating that issue.

Access is easy. The bedding is 2 separate foam matresses. I remove the pillows, then fold one matress over the other, keeping the bedding intact, then carry the folded bundle out of the cabin. I use straps to keep the assembly as a bundle. Takes only a minute and just as easy to put back. For checking the oil, just fold one matress over the other ... no need to remove.

Sure it would be better at times not to disturb my partner, but that is offset by the ability to work in the protected environment inside. Rainy days are perfect times to do those queued maintenance tasks.

Which is better? For me, it's not enough of an issue to make or break the decision on which boat to buy.
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Old 11-09-2015, 04:27   #24
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

I have no problems with engines inside under bunks. I really like the outside access on ours for the ease of service and removal. I can have an engine out and on my dock in just over two hours. The lifting done with the dinghy davit all voyage yachts have.
As an old monohull sailor never had the choice of engine not being inside.

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Old 11-09-2015, 12:55   #25
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

I've had both and both have there pros and cons both ways. For under berth installs: The smell so often cited is a non issue. Less rust on engine as no salt splashes when accessing underway. Weight further forward is always a plus. Con is moving the mattress and residual heat when using that berth. Nice stern lockers available for light items.
For separate access installs: easier access unless in a lot of wave action then it's downright scary to open the hatch especially if there is not enough room to close it after you go down. I hate to see salt water on my engines. Like a lot of features I would not rule a boat in or out over it.


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Old 11-09-2015, 14:54   #26
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

Our engines are under the berths and the berth is hinged in the back and supported by gas struts. Just lift it at the front and the top hinges up and is supported by the struts - lots of room to work, and when the top is lowered all the bedding is intact and unchanged.

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Old 11-09-2015, 15:06   #27
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

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Our engines are under the berths and the berth is hinged in the back and supported by gas struts. Just lift it at the front and the top hinges up and is supported by the struts - lots of room to work, and when the top is lowered all the bedding is intact and unchanged.
Mark - do you have mirrors on the ceiling to help illuminate the "work area"?
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Old 11-09-2015, 22:03   #28
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

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Mark - do you have mirrors on the ceiling to help illuminate the "work area"?
I expect he would have Led lighting and headlight.
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Old 12-09-2015, 07:17   #29
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

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Mark - do you have mirrors on the ceiling to help illuminate the "work area"?
There is LED strip lighting around the bottom of the berth - lift the berth and the lights light up the area like daylight. The reading spot lights are also mounted so that they can be swiveled onto any individual point for even greater spot illumination.

Then there is the AC vent right there blowing cold dry air on me while I work (one of the few times we use the AC - and one of the best reasons why we have never torn out the AC system).

Yes, excellent lighting, cool air, protected environment, safe working area, lots of working room, easy access to tool storage, easy access to beer - we really like having the engines inside the boat.

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Old 12-09-2015, 08:10   #30
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Re: Cruising Cat Design Pet Peeves - What am I missing

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Then there is the AC vent right there blowing cold dry air on me while I work (one of the few times we use the AC - and one of the best reasons why we have never torn out the AC system).
AC in the engine compartment? Son of a ......!
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