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Old 23-02-2012, 12:29   #1
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Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

Hi,

I am considering to buy a rebuild Crowther Kraken 33 trimaran.

Can anyone comment on the Kraken 33 and their feelings if it is safe to be taken offshore?
They have been raced in the OSTAR, but than again not all boats doing that where perfectly safe to do so.

I know that one should not press them to hard "downhill" and plan not to overload her either. I am considering also change the masthead rig to a 7/8th rig or a roatating wing. But, that depends on the deal I can achieve.

So, anyone who has sailed one out on the ocean, I am keen to hear your stories.

Many thanks,

Franziska
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Old 25-02-2012, 12:19   #2
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

While I haven't sailed on a Kraken 33 I do sail a similar vintage Australian design. Safety offshore really comes down to a combination of things. 1 Build quality, 2 How the boat's been used- material fatigue 3 Operator style 4 Load 5 Preparation. #5 is the big one as it can fix or amplify the problems of 1-4. The original Kraken 33 Bandersnatch won races inshore and offshore. Lock Crowther's brother was among those that died when it apparently hit a whale at speed on delivery and broke up. Like a performance car, not putting the pedal to the metal is part of driving safely. A fast design can be cruised quickly with less sail giving better safety margins. Finding enough information to work out the pounds per inch immersion should show you if there is enough load carrying ability for your needs. The Kraken is very slender, what I would call a backpack cruiser since there isn't room for much else. It has lower buoyancy amas/floats which Ian Farrier determined have a better safety record since people can't drive the boats so hard, not that he or anyone but daysailors are going back to them! The float attachment points are a weaker part of the design and should be checked carefully as a old collision could have caused problems. Sailed within its limitations and carrying a series drogue or the like would be the key to safety. I wouldn't plan on carrying more than 2 people total cruising. I don't recall one sailing the OSTAR but long hop payload would be easier with a crew of 1. More of a coastal cruiser really, whether or not you can make your needs fit within the design parameters will depend on you. A good idea would be to get time sailing one so you can see how it feels to you, safe to one can seem scary for another.
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Old 25-02-2012, 13:04   #3
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

Hi Franziska!

I saw your trimaran "Aquaris" when she was docked here in Cartagena last year, even spoke to the skipper. I did not readily recognize her a a Crowther Tempest. On checking your above logbook link I was shocked to read that she is no more - what actually happened?

As to the Kraken 33 - I think Cavalier Mk2 has summed it up well. I looked at a Kraken 33 and did not really like the buoyancy of the amas nor the attachment of the amas too much for offshore work.

What are your sailing plans for a new tri? I might have some ideas
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Old 26-02-2012, 06:57   #4
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

Hi,

thanks to the replies.

Well, Aquaris lost her mast, the crew was taken off board (after 4 hours waiting and not packing anything up or getting rid of the mast which was hitting the hull).
I was not onboard and would have surely handled this very differently, especially as the weather was not that bad, 5Bft gusting, they had a sea anchor and the weather was calm the next day.
When they left the boat, she was still ok, apart from the mast.
Overnight a tugboat tried to salvage her but damaged her even more.
The next day she was holed and full of water adrift about 12nm from the Portuguese coast and the insurance decided that a salvage would not be viable.

In my eyes a typical case of giving a boat up to early.

Luckily the insurance paid, but, believe it or not, the crew asks me to pay for their personal gear which they failed to pack up.
Even cameras and cash money. Still mad at them. Got a lawyer to handle this by now.

Regarding my plans with the new boat. Brazil & beyond in few years time. Basic comfort but sailing fun. I have had this before and liked this style.
A non folding tri is fine and the one i am looking at has standing headroom. It seems in good shape and has been well taken care of in recent years.
The price is a fraction of that of a folding tri of the same size and the extra price for berthing a non folding boat is way way less over many years than the extra cost of a folding boat.

The thing that keeps me thinking me on the boat I am looking at currently, are:

1)
How many loadcycles has she done (she was on the hard for many years before the refit).
2)
How well has the wood kept up over time.
3)
I plan to replace the stilts between hulls and wings by new ones in any case.
4)
Can a narrow double bunk be fitted under the cockpit.


I calculated a maximum of approx 1000 kg incl. 2 crew to be added for longer cruising (minimum equipment, food & supplies needed!). So once I am there I'll see how if she will handle this.
I will singlehand a fair bit on this trip.

Option two is a Newick Echo 36 but that is unfortunately way to expensive currently. We'll see.

I rather go cruising with basic comfort & DO IT, than to safe for many many years and than not have the health & funds for the cruise itself.

Limits are approx 50000€ for the fully equipped boat in great shape & then 1000€ per month on average for travelling.
I have done some cruising on a smaller budget for about a year before.

Hugs,

Franzi
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Old 26-02-2012, 10:13   #5
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

It sounds like you have a viable plan and are taking care of the things that would need attention. A boat on the hard isn't getting load/wear cycles. Lower bouancy amas are not a liability, they have a proven record, just not the ultimate for the greed for speed! I love Newick's original Echo design and have seen them listed on the market more affordably in New Zealand from time to time where they built a few. It seems your budget opens up many options. 1000kg or 1 ton is probably too much weight for the kraken, 500 kg might be heavy. You stand to lose the performance that interests you in the first place and increase the structural loads. A Crowther Buccaneer 33 would be more suitable and can be found pretty affordably and more easily, there are some for sale in the US now for US $20,000-30,000 and under. The other thing to consider are more cruising designs like the Searunner, Cross etc....which are designed for your load and would probably out perform a overloaded "hot" design. I agree that money is better spent on things besides folding, take some time to research the alternatives, if you are prepared to travel to the boat and fit out on location many more options will be available to you. A Searunner 34 might be a good fit. I talked to Dick Newick about cruising the Echo 1 when the design first came out but it was hard to get him to transition to a cruising payload. He told me 600 pounds was the racing payload, when I asked if I couldn't carry 700 he said " Sure but the guy carrying 600 would beat you !"
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Old 26-02-2012, 11:35   #6
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

Hi Franzi,

Real shame about losing "Aquaris" but at least the insurance paid up. I liked her lines a lot, unfortunately I was too slow with my camera.

With your plans I think you might be pushing it a bit with a Kraken 33 loadwise.

What do you think of this trimaran:

Multi Sailing - Second hand multihulls - 27710 Irens 40

Might fit the bill, she has come down from €79000 to this price and who knows for a cash deal?
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Old 26-02-2012, 12:12   #7
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

@Roger

Very cool, but definetly not for cruising. Not sure if one can stand up inside at all.
Looks costly to maintain and in need of a substantial upgrade.
My budget mentioned above is for a boat ready to go cruising.
I know Nigel (her designer) from an internship I did in his office in 2000.
Very very nice guy.
I recently chatted with him and he pointed me even more down the Newick route when looking for a reasonably priced performance cruiser racer.
Nigel's multihulls designs are awesome, but costly for a budget orientated person.

Richard Wood's boats (for example the Javelin) are great too, but I like the looks of the Newicks a tad more.

I personally agree that overloading a boat is not really an option. Of course a racer looses performance the more it gets loaded. Still I can and will limit the added gear.
The Kraken may be a bit to light for my plans. I'll decide once I have seen the boat.
Still the 1000kg loading mentioned above include a second crew member, the associated gear and the maximum amount of gear to load plus a margin.
So loading on average would be closer to 750kg or a little less I guess.

Rightly it all depends on the kg/cm immersion, which depends on the waterline area of the Kraken.
I'd guess the mainhull waterline is 10m long, and on average the beam is 0.5m.
I have an approximate WL area of 5m on the main hull.
5mx0.01m=>0.05m/cm immersion
Adjustet for saltwater =>0.05125t=>51kg/cm immersion=>approx 15cm draft increase geared up. Realistically the leeward hull will carry a bit of this too, so it may be a bit less.
Maybe I could shorten the stilts between the floats and the wings slightly to adjust for the deeper immersion of the main hull to some degree.


The Searunners are good boats but to far on the pure cruising side for my taste.
The Tempest "Aquaris" was perfect but no need to think about it anymore, it is, as sad as that may be, gone...


The bad side is too, that good Newicks are rare this side of the big pond. There are two Tricias in the US for sale, but both are ex VAT, which is an issue for me if I buy soon. Further, the one I liked a lot is in Texas and really far....


I may end up saving up further ..
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Old 26-02-2012, 15:49   #8
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

If you're into Newicks and in/near France Golden Oldies Multihulls may be worth checking into as they try to match people with boats.

Finding a Newick in the US isn't a bad idea if you want to head towards Brazil. The Tricias though, carry less than Echos by a significant margin. Native at 38' could do what you want as well as Creative at 42. I think the original Echo would be alright too.

You;d like my Nicol as it is very similar to your Tempest, we can carry 1000kg easily while maintaining good performance because the main hull has enough beam for the load while the amas are fine for low resistance, we haven't been able to bury them either. Other Antipodean craft worth looking at are designs by Malcolm Tennant.

I get about 18cm of immersion with your load on the Kraken which might let the amas fasten right to the beams...The drag though will be from the transom immersion though you could reduce it by lengthening it half a meter.

Try getting to know the Golden Oldies people if you don't already as their members have many of the boats you like, their meets would be a great way to check into them before you buy.

Cheers
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Old 27-02-2012, 01:21   #9
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Thanks again for your thoughts.

I have been in touch with Golden Oldies already.
I was looking into Trinitrine, gorgeous but way to small.
A Native 38 would be perfect, but I think that is likely to kill me budget wise. So it will be a boat around 36ft.Do you happen to have an Email address of Dick Newick and send it to me in a personal message?
I got some questions for him.Amongst others the question how he would attach a parachute on an Echo 36.

So I'll look how far I can trim my weights down and may wait until I have my cash together.

At the moment I can not realistically consider anything over 35000€.I will never take a bank loan to buy a boat.Just to risky these days.

Thanks again,

Franzi
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Old 27-02-2012, 02:12   #10
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

Nice website Franzi, viel Glck
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Old 27-02-2012, 10:16   #11
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

Helo Franziska,
I've sent you a PM with Dick Newick's information. A parachute needs to be hooked up with a bridle as far apart as possible. On a boat like Echo that would mean lines and blocks rigged to the ama bows so you don't have to go out there. On any design with curved surfaces on the decks ice has to be watched out for in winter months to avoid the wrong kind of sledding! If there is room I'd suggest a series drogue off the stern. A Newick White Wings sold awhile back for far less than expected so don't give up hope. Derek Kelsall also has some fast trimarans out there you might want to take a look at.

Cheers
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Old 27-02-2012, 12:20   #12
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

@Cavalier

Many thanks for the PM & Co.

Regarding the parachute, I want to quiz Dick on it, as for example, the ama bows of the Echo 36 (or also the Kraken) are not readily accessible and the leverage their foward end has on the beam is considerable.
I think they may not like to be janked on to hard by the bridle.

Actually my parachute anchor manufacturer (Fiorentino) had a look on the pictures of the Kraken an said that in such an occassion the would suggest no bridle but a deployment over the main bow in combination with a V-Shaped steading sail astern.
I just wonder what Dick thinks.

Option one is to slow the boat down with a drogue, option two to use the parachute.

The point with the ice is right, but I am aiming for the barefoot route...

Actually Whitewings was also a design I liked a lot, but A) it was sold and B) I think I should buy a boat which could somehow get to Europe before the cruise, as I surely have to do a year of preparation.
So a boat somewhere on the Westcoast is not really an option.

Of course containers or delivery are an option.
The latter would only happen if I am personally on board too. I learned from the Aquaris desaster.

Thanks again,

Franzi
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Old 27-02-2012, 14:44   #13
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

I think the Echo bows would be able to handle it providing the dagger and perhaps rudder were pulled up. The beams were made to handle loading from foils and new moon amas.
Interesting combination for the Kraken, read Richard Woods Eclipe log for his take on parachutes, they have let a few people down. It would be good to hear what Dick says, he might be like Ettore Bugatti who said "I make cars to go, not to stop!" when asked about his brakes.
Do you have to have a trimaran or are you considering cats as well?

Cheers
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Old 28-02-2012, 13:23   #14
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

Hi,

I wrote to Dick, no reply yet, but we'll see.

Yes, Richard was lucky to survive. Still there are others who wish they would have had a parachute as last option and some who used it with success...

Well, regarding tri or cat. I have sailed both and cats are good too, but I like on a trimaran that they can take the rigging loads onto a longitudinal beam (=the mainhull) somehow I feel they have more structural integrity unless you go for advanced structures or a solid bridgedeck on a cat, which I do not like that much.
Still, I do know that cats are the better load carriers in principle.

Most cats in my size/price range tend to be voluminous sitting dogs ;-) On the other hand I would not want to trust the beams of an older open bridgedeck cat.
I do not look after comfort but want at least a small spot where I can stand up inside (1.75m headroom). I am not after a lot of creature comforts either.

I'd think 10m is about the minimum size for venturing further offshore & I know it can be done in smaller boats but I just think below 10m is to small for my taste.
If the F27 would be slightly larger I'd probably consider the center cockpit version. Unfortunately its largers sisters are just way more expensive and not available on the market as a bargain.

Cheerio
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Old 28-02-2012, 17:27   #15
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Re: Crowther Kraken 33 - Offshore - Reasonably Safe ?

Here is a link to Scott Brown Multihulls where they sometimes list things other than the voluminous sort. Multihulls for sale The Mark 1 Iroquois aren't slow....There are interesting things sometimes and if you get desperate they have a Wharram listing The Kelsall would have been good but the Snow Geese would get you there and count as an apartment.

I'd get a parachute but almost more to hold station in quieter weather waiting for light. Right now we just plan on using the laundry of the most obnoxious crewperson...

Here is the winter boat yard, this time of year we carry a bucket of sand for the decks - another reason to skip a yacht finish in the NW!

Cheers
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