Cost of power vs. sail

[44'cruisingcat]

And now it's "My boat's better than your boat"

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Seeratlas

your costs for rigging and sails are vastly higher than we can do here in the states or canada, UNLESS you are going the proverbial 'first cabin' rig with every modern powered reefing/furling convenience.

Nup, just a normal alloy section with a decent furler for headies and screecher.

You do realise that a conventional alloy rig costs more than a steel pipe with galv rigging ? And that different mast sizes cost different amounts of money ?

Get your boat in the water and we'll compare figures.

Why? Thats comparing Apples to watermelons

Mine's a 44 Brewer designed boat, free standing 1200 sq.ft. "Gallant" schooner rig, sails are simply flat panels cut from a bolt of sailcloth tho the nature of this rig would allow using pretty much anything from bedding linen to sunbrella if someone desired. Sail replacement is a matter of cutting lengths off a bolt to fit.

Great for you, not the boat for me.

Tho shorter than your 50 overall, i'm around 40k ish displacement and a 7.5 to 9 knot boat under sail depending on conditions. My 85hp Daimler burns just under 1 US gallon an hour at 7.5 to 8 knot cruise.

The mythical beastie, a boat that uses .5 of a litre/NM or 2 NM/litre, and at 8 knots as well. Well done.

I carry approx 250 plus fuel, 250 plus water, and draw 5'8", and I'm steel with an aluminum PH, inside and outside steering. Each mast has one halyard, one sheet. they are led to a single winch thru jam cleats. The boat can be sailed, reefed, etc. without leaving the hatch. A 'tacking' duel consists of throwing the helm over.

But can you get into that lagoon or up that creek wit a barred entrance with 3 feet over the entrance at high. I need to.

Plenty of multis are a simple throw the helm over to tack affair as well.

What kills sail life is more often than not, UV degradation, my sails are dark and UV protected, as is the thread used to sew the small boltropes onto each, which is the only sewing involved

Great, solar is a killer

.

Unless your cat is substantially different from those I have been on, with my modest draft, steel construction, leaded keel, and tall balanced rig, I *suspect* my motion at sea to be substantially less, both on and off the wind than your cat.

Is this a bad thing ? Most boats feel different in in different conditions

Since my rig is designed to take a full roll and not lose the sticks, and the wing sails themselves designed to take a 75knot gust without failing, my *anxiety* level in the deep blue might b a tad lower than that of your cat

,

But will it sail in light wind conditions ? Where I cruise the wind is usualy light (needing performance boat) or fairly heavy (needing a secure anchorage and a few rums)

75 knots would be very rare (cyclone ?) and I don't plan to go out then.

tho your choice of engines is a good one. Hard to find any flaw in the cummins.

Thanks for your vote of confidence

At present, in the US at least, your cited investment interest rate would be difficult but not impossible to achieve.

Just as well I'm not in America then, though you do have other investments there that will pull similar rates

Lastly, your intended use helps make your choices more understandable. However, the same could be said of mine. My boat is designed and built to be able to go anywhere I might care to go, including the ice filled north, the major canals and rivers of Europe, well, lets just call it anywhere I've got enough water to float even if only temporarily as provisions for shear legs are designed into the hull. As to accomodations, tho designed to be sailed by one person with the use of one arm, I can comfortably accomodate six for extended periods.

If thats the boat you need and have built, kudos to you sir

Since barring serious health or injury problems I should be out and about for the next decade or so, therefore, when I get the new gear installed and splash in the next couple of months or so, we can begin to compare numbers

Good luck with the launch, but pointless comparing numbers (Apples and Watermelons)

. Good luck on finishing her up, oh, and what are you doing for refrigeration and cooling?

Plenty of it, havent made a firm decision as yet


Dave

[44'cruisingcat]

LOL. You gotta laugh. The guy who doesn't believe you will get 1 litre/nautical mile from a light, long, skinny hulled cat, is now claiming to get 1/2 litre/nautical mile from a heavy displacement steel monohull 6 feet shorter! AND at virtually the same speed you are targetting!

[Seeratlas]

"

Originally Posted by cat man do

Nup, just a normal alloy section with a decent furler for headies and screecher."

cheaper here.

"You do realise that a conventional alloy rig costs more than a steel pipe with galv rigging ? And that different mast sizes cost different amounts of money ?"

er uh, well, yeah.



"Great for you, not the boat for me."

as they say, different strokes, but I was under the impression that is what this thread is about.



"The mythical beastie, a boat that uses .5 of a litre/NM or 2 NM/litre, and at 8 knots as well. Well done."

Don't use litres here. 7.5 to 8 knots, just a smidge under a gallon an hour. That's what she does.



"But can you get into that lagoon or up that creek wit a barred entrance with 3 feet over the entrance at high. I need to."

I think I commented that your cruising grounds are substantially different than mine.

"Plenty of multis are a simple throw the helm over to tack affair as well."

Yes, but few I've seen tack well into the wind.

"Great, solar is a killer"

.Getting better all the time


"Is this a bad thing ? Most boats feel different in in different conditions"

Granted I havn't been on all that many big cats in a seaway, but so far I prefer the feel of a boat more "in" the water than skating across the top when the weather gets up.


"But will it sail in light wind conditions ? Where I cruise the wind is usualy light (needing performance boat) or fairly heavy (needing a secure anchorage and a few rums)"
Hard to say, but will probably sail a mite better with a rig than your rig'less cat

"75 knots would be very rare (cyclone ?) and I don't plan to go out then."
Granted, I know of lots of circumnavigators that have never seen anything close. I havn't gone around yet, but I've been in two. <shrugs> With any luck, I won't see another, yet every time you head out on a passage, you still run the risk, and with my limited speed, well, you can't avoid em all.


"Thanks for your vote of confidence"
You'll like the cummins. Lots of canucks I know have them.



"Just as well I'm not in America then, though you do have other investments there that will pull similar rates"

At the moment the financial markets here are in some flux. Going to be awhile before it all shakes out and get's back to normal. And, as always, more return is available, but accompanied by higher risk.



"If thats the boat you need and have built, kudos to you sir"
As i think I said, this is to be my 'last' boat and one I will leave to my son and daughter to enjoy with their families after. The design and equipment parameters reflect that.




"Good luck with the launch, but pointless comparing numbers (Apples and Watermelons)"

Perhaps, but still it might be interesting to compare two different skippers' chosen vessels' performance over a substantial period of time.



"Plenty of it, havent made a firm decision as yet"

Refrigeration is one of those things I hate dealing with most. I keep hoping someone will come out with a system that is simple, reliable, and cost effective. they all claim it...but I think few would agree anyone has really accomplished it. Best luck I've had was a norcold dual voltage unit i.e. 110/12volt, but it entailed lots of generator usage.


Dave

hmmm strange message on length of this.

[44'cruisingcat]

So you claim your boat uses 3.8 litres per hour (1 US gallon) at 8 knots, for a 44 foot, 18 tonne steel displacement boat, while also pushing a rig through the air, and yet you question CMD's projection that he will manage 10 litres/hour at 10 knots with a 50 foot boat that weighs less than half what yours does?

Wouldn't you say THAT seemes a little strange?

BTW how much would you estimate your rig would cost? Including all the deck gear, sheet leads, winches, travellers, blocks, sheets, halyards, sails, the cost of the crane to stand the mast/s, the labour associated with fitting all this stuff etc. etc?

I doubt you would get much change from $40,000 would you? Invest that at 7.5% (you'll get that anywhere in Aus) and you'll get $3000 per year interest. At $1.30 per litre that buys you 2307 litres of fuel - enough (at your claimed speed vs fuel use)to get you 4614 nautical miles per year FREE. AND you get to keep the $40,000!

Also consider that without the rig, your boat will motor even faster, and incredibly use even LESS fuel, and you won't need as much ballast which will make your already amazingly efficient boat even more so - you could almost be approaching a perpetual motion machine!

[cat man do]

you could almost be approaching a perpetual motion machine!

LOL

Also find it amusing that after I flopped the financial schlong on the table backing up my decision and comment with actual numbers (not just emotional opinion), that the naysayers have gone strangely quiet.

Dave

[Alan Wheeler]

Boy oh boy. I haven't been following this thread, but thought I had better check in to see what was happening. Now I am not sure that was a good idea. It's a bit hard to follow, but I think I see a theme happening. So I suggest that a coupel of you cool off a little before this gets out of hand.
Something that might help though. The argument of fuel use. Teh advantage of a displacement hull is that to push the hull through the water equires little power. This is assuming that wind and the topsides resistance to wind does not offer to great a resistance. The Hp required to push a displacment weight to close to hull speed is approx 1.5Hp/T.
A diesel engine has one unique feature to its operation. It uses a set dose of fuel for a set amount of power developed. This means that say a 40Hp engine will use close to double the fuel quantity of a 20Hp engine. A rule of thumb is 0.225Ltr/Hp/hr.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by cat man do

LOL

Also find it amusing that after I flopped the financial schlong on the table backing up my decision and comment with actual numbers (not just emotional opinion), that the naysayers have gone strangely quiet.

Dave

Not sure the so called naysayers got quiet due to your rambling reams of paper opinions. Just tired of spinning their wheels in this thread.
There is lots of other interesting threads going on with people of flexibility

[44'cruisingcat]

Flexibility? Someone who was flexible enough to consider the POSSIBILITY that for his use, a power only boat might be more economical to run, and actually decided to run the numbers to see, compared to those who just plain KNOW that sailboats are more economical, and aren't willing to even look at any other possibilities.

Look, I am building a sailboat - because I like sailing - I hate having to motor - which is why I want my boat to be able to sail even in very light wind - but the numbers are there - if you invest the extra dollars a rig and sails would cost (talking about a new boat here) and just motor everywhere it very likely could work out cheaper.

IMHO getting there by motor wouldn't be as satisfying, or as enjoyable, and that is why I am sticking a mast on mine.

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by cat man do

LOL

Also find it amusing that after I flopped the financial schlong on the table backing up my decision and comment with actual numbers (not just emotional opinion), that the naysayers have gone strangely quiet.

Dave

"If you don't agree with my assumptions you will never accept my conclusions."

Your assumptions are perfectly clear. And your math based on those assumptions seems adequate enough. So the only thing left is to attack your assumptions.

1/ Sailboat rig cost
2/ Diesel fuel cost

By your own calculation you have discounted fuel by assuming 50% of it will be purchased under Malaysian subsidy.

For "you" this may be a perfectly acceptable assumption. However I would suggest that to be fair to the "average" global power cat cruiser and an average catsailer you would have to take current average diesel prices and then factor in diesel fuel cost growth using say 15 year historical data to predict 16 year future trend.

As far as sail rig and how long sails last etc. We could go around and around.

The issue is we are probably going to beat a dead "cat" because we are committed to our assumptions.

BTW - I don't think this is about who's idea is better. If we all reached the same conclusion there would only be one type of boat in the world and we'd all wear the same blue jumpsuit and eat Soylent Green.

At some point ya gotta say, "Screw it. I like 6 hulls powered by nuclear fueled water jet engines. To hell with all ya'll"

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

By your own calculation you have discounted fuel by assuming 50% of it will be purchased under Malaysian subsidy.

In the same post I also said

Build and usage over 15 years

Sail $206,576

Power $146,000

Even if replacing the motors( - $10k + $30k), running 2 at once and buying Australian fuel it comes to $187,992.00

BTW - I don't think this is about who's idea is better. [/quote]

It never was (for me).

But it was about pointing out that it is possible to have a powered vessel that works out comparable and even cheaper than the equivelent sized sail vessel.

These boats do exist and have done for a while. (Seeratlas has one, apparently)

I am building one, others have before me, and others will after me.

Dave

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Look, I am building a sailboat - because I like sailing - I hate having to motor - which is why I want my boat to be able to sail even in very light wind - but the numbers are there - if you invest the extra dollars a rig and sails would cost (talking about a new boat here) and just motor everywhere it very likely could work out cheaper.

IMHO getting there by motor wouldn't be as satisfying, or as enjoyable, and that is why I am sticking a mast on mine.

I'm the same.

In my original thread I made it quite clear that I would have prefered sail over power, but when I started this project I honestly could not afford the initial expense of rig, sails and deckhardware.

I was not prepared to put a sub standard bitsa rig and sail combo on it either.

I was not prepared to build a smaller say 37 ft cat which I could affford as the sailing performance would have been compromised to much by the gear I want to carry.

BUT I could afford a rigless version of the original and I could afford the $5000 or so a year to run the motors.

TO ME, it was more important to get on the water, at a young age instead of working for several more years getting the cash together, to purchase said rig.

Dave

[Seeratlas]

44', the rig on mine consists of two keel stepped free standing round masts. Rotating around the masts are the equivalent of 8 lightweight aluminum wishbones of decreasing size starting at the "boom" and going up. One halyard, one tracked sheet per mast. Oh, and internal equivalents of lazy jacks that keep the ribs in column. No standing rigging. No sail track, no slides, no down hauls, no vangs, nada ergo, extremely limited parasitic drag due to the complete absence of standing rigging. Even the halyards come down inside the wing sails. Sails are made by simply cutting whatever type of cloth you want to use to length, sewing small boltropes on top and bottom to feed into the grooves in the aluminum 'ribs' and that's it. Very simple and inexpensive rig to maintain. Whole thing goes up and down like an accordion. If you use a multipart block on the halyard, no winches are required as about 25 percent or so of each sail is forward of the mast so sheet tension is minimal. Each 'rib' slides around the mast on teflon pads to minimize tension. The rig goes up and down without drama, unlike say the Freedom rig whose wrap around sails when wet can be a bear to lower.

As to the fuel usage, the engine is a 85hp continuous industrial Daimler 6 with Bosch self bleeding injection. The local mechanic who had it on his test bed stated bluntly it was smoothest running diesel he'd had in the shop. It appears to have been well made. The prop is well, a 'substantial' 3 blade. The hull is a very nice Brewer design, with separate skeg hung rudder. If you haven't done much motorsailing, there is a beneficial effect known often referred to as induced wind which favorably effects fuel usage. If you have done some motorsailing, then of course you already knew this.

Frankly, for single handling in the 44' range, all in all, I like this boat a lot, for just about anywhere, and any conditions which is after all, what she was built for.

seer

[Alan Wheeler]

As the saying goes, "Whatever floats ya Boat". Guy's stop arguing. It's pointless and the discussion is going round and round. We buy/build boats to suit our individual needs and wants. What maybe an ugling duckling to one, is a beautiful mega boat to someone else. What maybe the best mode of propulsion ot one, maybe too fast because you miss the scenery, or too slow, we want to get there, for someone else. As for comparing cost, well....that is just laughable. You can not compare full stop. One may be happy with a "bitsa" rig, antoher maybe able to do the work themselves, another may not care becuase they can afford it. Each country will have different costs, so you can't compare based on that either. So please keep this discussion in order.

[spencer53]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

As the saying goes, "Whatever floats ya Boat". Guy's stop arguing. It's pointless and the discussion is going round and round. We buy/build boats to suit our individual needs and wants. What maybe an ugling duckling to one, is a beautiful mega boat to someone else. What maybe the best mode of propulsion ot one, maybe too fast because you miss the scenery, or too slow, we want to get there, for someone else. As for comparing cost, well....that is just laughable. You can not compare full stop. One may be happy with a "bitsa" rig, antoher maybe able to do the work themselves, another may not care becuase they can afford it. Each country will have different costs, so you can't compare based on that either. So please keep this discussion in order.

Now this agree with