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Old 16-12-2007, 20:16   #91
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I think the term period of comparison would make more sense if you compared over 20 years. By then most eveything that does something on both vessels is wearing out.
On a sailboat, rigging, engine, a few ports, cushions and so on. Then on a powerboat, the same minus rigging and sails. However. The power boat could have 2 very large, very expensive deisels compared to the sail's smaller engine. Then there is the cost of fuel for each. You would say obviously the power boat would use more. But how many power boats just sit and serve as a condo. Having said that and after 20 years not counting the fuel because its a mixed bag, I would say sails on a 40ft. Ketch rigging and engine is $20K to $25K,,,new stuff. The 40 ft. power boat engines
also could come in at $20K each = $40K. Interior wise, I would assume they are relatively the same.
Hope my input is helpful.
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Old 16-12-2007, 20:16   #92
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"CMD - That'd be two engines totaling 130hp and 6.6 litres displacement on a boat weighing 8500kg max

Compared to a 127hp motor with 10.5 litres displacement pushing a boat weight 32000kg."

Once again we are comparing Apples and Watermelons.

The only logical way to approach this argument is to start with interior volume - Living space - and then compare.

CMD - I would never knock your plan, and I don't think you'd care if I did - LOL.

However the OP post was pretty clear. Appples to apples, which is cheaper.

Let's also assume distance traveled is the same.

Acquisition cost - Selling price = capital cost
Maintenance / months = monthly maintenance cost
(cost fuel / distance traveled) + (cost of sails and running rigging / distance traveled) = "propulsion cost"

We must identify at least one and preferably 2 fixed variables - I propose interior volume and distance traveled.
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Old 16-12-2007, 20:47   #93
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Originally Posted by Celestialsailor View Post
. The power boat could have 2 very large, very expensive deisels compared to the sail's smaller engine.
Yeah it could

The sailboat could also have a large prebent rotating carbon fibre mast with sails to match.

My 2 very large expensive diesels are actually 2 fairly small (65hp) inexpensive(thanks to exchange rate) Cummins engines about the same size as what I would have had in the sail version.

Infact when I got them, they cost me less than $1000 more (each) than the motors I would have used in the sail version, and the props were a hell of a lot cheaper as they are not folding.

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Old 16-12-2007, 21:00   #94
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quote=Ex-Calif
The only logical way to approach this argument is to start with interior volume - Living space - and then compare.
Hmmmm, 50 ft performance sailing cat VS 50 ft low powered powercat.

Same boat and construction (basically) with the powered version a bit lighter (4 ft narrower) and the last 12 feet a bit different in the underwater shape.

Similar powerplant, similar space (more shade on the power)

This is the comparison I have been making since day dot starting from this thread

Efficient Powerboats vs Efficient Sailboats (Running Cost Comparison)

Quote:
CMD - I would never knock your plan, and I don't think you'd care if I did - LOL.
Absolutely correct

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Old 16-12-2007, 21:07   #95
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I notice a lot of people assuming the power boats never get used. living here in the whitsundays (Australia) i can tell you that the ratio of sail boats is much higher but the ratio of power boats going out campared to those sail boats is much higher. Also i would say 9 out of 10 sail boats motor sail all the way around here. i must say i am one person also thinking of going the way taken by Dave. The outer reef here is a great spot especially when under 10knots of wind but it takes a bloody long time to sail there in that much wind.
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Old 16-12-2007, 21:11   #96
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"CMD - 50 ft performance sailing cat VS 50 ft low powered powercat"

That's going to be a great comparison. Another way to skin the cat for these two very similar hulls is this.

Assume the cost of the hulls (empty of power) is the same.

Add the cost of a complete mast rig, complete set of sails and an auxilliary powerplant - assuming no one would go to sea without at least an aux.

- or -

Add the cost of two complete powerplants and the associated upgrades in tankage etc.

Now you have the baseline cost of the rigs - new.

Now go travel 30,000 miles. Assume 9 knots for each propulsion system and about 200 days traveling, 165 days on the hook per year.

Let's call that 15 years. Let's also call that 3400 engine hours. Let's also suggest the sailboat will power 10% of the time.

New sail wardrobe = XXXX
2 new standing rig (shrouds at 7.5 years each)
+ 340 hours worth of fuel

vs.

2 engine overhauls = YYYY
6800 hours worth of fuel

Maybe we'll call any new sheets and such a wash vis a vis oil changes and routine engine maintenance.

The numbers may be a little off but that's how I'd start to zero in on it.

BTW - I reckon to comare either of these two craft to a mono you'd have to be talking a +65' boat for space.
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Old 16-12-2007, 21:12   #97
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Originally Posted by viking69 View Post
I notice a lot of people assuming the power boats never get used. living here in the whitsundays (Australia) i can tell you that the ratio of sail boats is much higher but the ratio of power boats going out campared to those sail boats is much higher. Also i would say 9 out of 10 sail boats motor sail all the way around here. i must say i am one person also thinking of going the way taken by Dave. The outer reef here is a great spot especially when under 10knots of wind but it takes a bloody long time to sail there in that much wind.
Hoorah, someone else who understands.

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Old 16-12-2007, 22:34   #98
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Yeah it could

The sailboat could also have a large prebent rotating carbon fibre mast with sails to match.

My 2 very large expensive diesels are actually 2 fairly small (65hp) inexpensive(thanks to exchange rate) Cummins engines about the same size as what I would have had in the sail version.

Infact when I got them, they cost me less than $1000 more (each) than the motors I would have used in the sail version, and the props were a hell of a lot cheaper as they are not folding.

Dave
Sure we can keep throwing outrages scenerios around like carbon masts or gold plated 800 hp twin engines but lets be a little realistic shall we? I wasn't even adding in the posibility of power boat fuel consumsion. If we do that guess what the power costs are then?
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Old 16-12-2007, 22:48   #99
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Sure we can keep throwing outrages scenerios around like carbon masts or gold plated 800 hp twin engines but lets be a little realistic shall we?
yes lets.

It was you making the assumption that powered vessels have large expensive engines.

I thought my examples of a powercat are very realistic seeing as there are working examples of similar boats out there already

Quote:
I wasn't even adding in the posibility of power boat fuel consumsion. If we do that guess what the power costs are then?
Thats OK, I did and again in my examples the costs are similar, with ( importantly ) less capital required up front for the powercat.

The information is all there in the previous post's and links if you care to look..

Dave
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Old 16-12-2007, 22:58   #100
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Ok Cat...You're right. I'm sure you have reams of paper that would dazzle us all. I was just giving my 2 cents worth not trying to make someone wrong but I'm sure you will have a comment about this too.
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Old 17-12-2007, 01:35   #101
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I think everyone is missing the real formula:

Owning (A)

motor cat
------------ /Monohull/ X (Time on water) = PRICELESS!!!!
Sailing cat

Personally, who cares how much it would cost, as long as you are fulfilling your true dream and lifestyle on the water. No one can put a price on that. In my opinion..

My .0000002 cents!!
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Old 17-12-2007, 02:03   #102
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I think everyone is missing the real formula:

Owning (A)

motor cat
------------ /Monohull/ X (Time on water) = PRICELESS!!!!
Sailing cat

Personally, who cares how much it would cost, as long as you are fulfilling your true dream and lifestyle on the water. No one can put a price on that. In my opinion..

My .0000002 cents!!
I don't think anyone could disagree with that!
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Old 17-12-2007, 03:47   #103
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"CMD - 50 ft performance sailing cat VS 50 ft low powered powercat"

That's going to be a great comparison. Another way to skin the cat for these two very similar hulls is this.

Assume the cost of the hulls (empty of power) is the same.
Agree.
Sail version would have been 4 feet wider overall but would not have had the extended roof or flybridge

Sail version would have had daggerboards and cases but would not have had full length keel protecting shaft props and rudders

Lets say $60k in materials for finished boat (pretty close)

Quote:
Add the cost of a complete mast rig, complete set of sails and an auxilliary powerplant - assuming no one would go to sea without at least an aux.
For the cat I was to build it came to about $60k in quality deck hardware, Rotating mast, fully battened square top main in cruise lam with RCB cars, a good cruise lam heady on furler, mylar screecher on furler and prodder and a big kite in squeezer sock.

Motors would have been 42 hp Kubota's that would have cost about $12k each plus feathering props ????? and a few other odds and sods so lets say about $15k each or $30 grand total

Rig + motors = $90,000 approx

Quote:
- or -

Add the cost of two complete powerplants and the associated upgrades in tankage etc.
2 x 65hp Cummins engines complete with panels and harnesses cost me $13,200 each, shaft would be slightly dearer as it is thicker, but the props would be cheaper as they don't fold so all up about $15k/side so $30k

Tankage
I still would have needed the 120 litre alloy day tanks for the sail version, the rest are underfloor as part of the structure and would have been there anyway, just that they may have had fresh water or been void in some.

cost for power $30k approx


Quote:
Now you have the baseline cost of the rigs - new
.

Sail approx $150,000

Power Approx $90,000


Obviously there would be refrigeration, batteries anchor winches, dinghy etc etc etc bringing the extras up to an additional $30k (but we won't count that)


Quote:
Now go travel 30,000 miles. Assume 9 knots for each propulsion system and about 200 days traveling, 165 days on the hook per year.

Let's call that 15 years. Let's also call that 3400 engine hours. Let's also suggest the sailboat will power 10% of the time.

New sail wardrobe = XXXX
2 new standing rig (shrouds at 7.5 years each)
+ 340 hours worth of fuel
I disagree on a set of sails lasting 15 years

I allowed $20,000 for a new sail wardrobe, but I seriously doubt 15 years infact I would suggest 7.5 (my last suit om my 10 metre cat were pretty much rooted after 5 years and these were about as good as you could get) x 2 = $40,000

Dropping rig, re-wire and stand again I allowed $5000 (9 lots of wire and terminal fittings at each end) x 2 = $10,000

Fuel

333 hours (x 2) = 666 hours = $8658 (@$1-30/litre)
or in Malaysia $4495 (@ $0-75c/litre)

split the difference and we get $6576

Total = $56,756



Quote:
vs.

2 engine overhauls = YYYY
6800 hours worth of fuel

Maybe we'll call any new sheets and such a wash vis a vis oil changes and routine engine maintenance.
2 engine overhauls

I particularly chose these cummins engines as they are slow spinning, and near bulletproof.

The Cummins fact sheet and warranty for this engine says

Unlimited hours in year 1

Full coverage year 2 up to 2000 hours

Major component coverage in year 3 of block, crankshaft, camshaft and rods on all products in the 3rd year up to 10,000 hours

So I am not sure if they would require a rebuild after 3400 hours and am not sure on price. For the sake of the discussion lets say $5000 each

Fuel

30,000nm div x 9 knots = 3333 engine hours. (x2 = 6666 hours)

I also would not always be using both engines at once
on passage I estimate that 8 knots would be very achievable on one engine and planned on 3 hour intervals between them

I would suggest 5000 hours worth of fuel

In oz at todays prices that equates to $58,500 (@$1-30/litre)
In Malaysia it equates to $33,750 (@ 0.75c/litre)

So lets split the difference and say $46,125 in fuel and $10,000 in rebuilds

Total $56,125

Quote:
The numbers may be a little off but that's how I'd start to zero in on it.
Build and usage over 15 years

Sail $206,576

Power $146,000

Even if replacing the motors( - $10k + $30k), running 2 at once and buying Australian fuel it comes to $187,992.00




Investing the initial rig cost ($60,000)

The next stage is the fact that I dont need to pay the $60,000 for the rig upfront and can therefore invest it to mitigate fuel costs (which I will do)

Even in the bank at 7.6% that will pay me $68,400 over those 15 years and I still have my original $60,000



Dave
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Old 17-12-2007, 06:22   #104
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CMD - Fair enough. I think you did it in the spirit of the game. I don't know if I'd argue the cost of rig and such but it's as close an apples to apples comparison as we've had so far.

Let's hope diesel prices hold for you.
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Old 17-12-2007, 06:52   #105
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your costs for rigging and sails are vastly higher than we can do here in the states or canada, UNLESS you are going the proverbial 'first cabin' rig with every modern powered reefing/furling convenience. Get your boat in the water and we'll compare figures. Mine's a 44 Brewer designed boat, free standing 1200 sq.ft. "Gallant" schooner rig, sails are simply flat panels cut from a bolt of sailcloth tho the nature of this rig would allow using pretty much anything from bedding linen to sunbrella if someone desired. Sail replacement is a matter of cutting lengths off a bolt to fit. Tho shorter than your 50 overall, i'm around 40k ish displacement and a 7.5 to 9 knot boat under sail depending on conditions. My 85hp Daimler burns just under 1 US gallon an hour at 7.5 to 8 knot cruise. I carry approx 250 plus fuel, 250 plus water, and draw 5'8", and I'm steel with an aluminum PH, inside and outside steering. Each mast has one halyard, one sheet. they are led to a single winch thru jam cleats. The boat can be sailed, reefed, etc. without leaving the hatch. A 'tacking' duel consists of throwing the helm over. What kills sail life is more often than not, UV degradation, my sails are dark and UV protected, as is the thread used to sew the small boltropes onto each, which is the only sewing involved. Unless your cat is substantially different from those I have been on, with my modest draft, steel construction, leaded keel, and tall balanced rig, I *suspect* my motion at sea to be substantially less, both on and off the wind than your cat. Since my rig is designed to take a full roll and not lose the sticks, and the wing sails themselves designed to take a 75knot gust without failing, my *anxiety* level in the deep blue might b a tad lower than that of your cat, tho your choice of engines is a good one. Hard to find any flaw in the cummins. At present, in the US at least, your cited investment interest rate would be difficult but not impossible to achieve. Lastly, your intended use helps make your choices more understandable. However, the same could be said of mine. My boat is designed and built to be able to go anywhere I might care to go, including the ice filled north, the major canals and rivers of Europe, well, lets just call it anywhere I've got enough water to float even if only temporarily as provisions for shear legs are designed into the hull. As to accomodations, tho designed to be sailed by one person with the use of one arm, I can comfortably accomodate six for extended periods.

Since barring serious health or injury problems I should be out and about for the next decade or so, therefore, when I get the new gear installed and splash in the next couple of months or so, we can begin to compare numbers. Good luck on finishing her up, oh, and what are you doing for refrigeration and cooling?

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