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Old 27-11-2007, 16:47   #16
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People who argue that power is comparable to sail over the long term are usually working on the assumption that you replace your old sails with new after a certain number of years (typically somewhere between 5 & 10 years). This assumption is, I believe, fundamentally flawed. You may choose to replace sails that regularly, and you may choose to replace old with brand new, but you don't have to. Fuel costs are the same whether you replace your engine or not.

For example, since I purchased my boat, I have got hold of several 2nd hand sails. So far I have got hold of a spare mainsail, a #1 lightweight genoa and a spare #1heavy. Those 3 sails have cost me the princely sum of just under $400 altogether. Bear in mind that I don't actually need these sails; I have a mainsail, and a #1 genoa, I bought them because they were cheap and in reasonable condition, on the premise that I would use them sooner or later. Its not like I can buy cheap second-hand diesel for a fraction of the cost of new diesel!

For me there is absolutely no comparison in the relative costs of power versus sail.
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Old 27-11-2007, 17:17   #17
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I would try it out first. Just because it's heaper it may not be you. Imagine being stuck on a boat you hate! Okm, so it's a few years out today. Maybe just trying it will help you decide. About the only serious isssue is making the money work.
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Old 03-12-2007, 14:27   #18
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Yeah, but they designed that boat 5-6 years ago. What were oil costs then? Their value proposition doesn't hold up today, but then again nothing short of a houseboat without an engine will. Sail is definately cheaper.

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
For a specific case that I wouldn't apply to the general. Dashews claim their unsailboat is operationally much cheaper than their sailboats.

SetSail.com - the serious cruising sailor's website


For me, it's lifestyle. I enjoy sailing. I would get an RV before a powerboat.

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Old 03-12-2007, 14:51   #19
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Sailboats are absolutely more epensive to operate and own, over the long haul. You have to consider the cost of all running and standing rigging, sails, haul outs, beer, fishing gear (that actually gets used), refrigeration (that actually gets used), ground tackle (that actually gets used) etc.

Fuel costs etc in the power boat are irrelivent because few people ever use the things because of fuel costs. They just sit at the dock for people to come down and sleep on them over the weekend.
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Old 03-12-2007, 15:53   #20
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We met people (on a cruise ship of all places) who switched from sail (some kind of Beneteau) to a single engine trawler. They lived on the east coast of Florida and frequently cruised the Bahamas. Money wasn’t an issue for them - they own property somewhere in the Abacos - and they switched for convenience/control/speed reasons. However, they claimed that they spent far less time (not always the same thing as money) working on and maintaining the trawler than they did on the sailboat. Of course, this could be true of any two boats and isn’t necessarily a power vs. sail thing.
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Old 03-12-2007, 21:16   #21
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Thanks again for all your replies. It is like going to school for me....

hc
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Old 03-12-2007, 23:51   #22
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Hi Houcruzer,

I believe that if you are just a bog standard 30 to 40 ft mono sailor that what most on here say is probably correct.

Sail is arguably cheaper as you can get second hand sails cheap and new sails won't make that much difference to performance.

But if sailing a fast performance Multi, those second hand sails will make a big difference to performance and I believe that for me anyway, there was no way that I would be happy with second hand sails (if I could find a set to suit) after having experienced what new ones are like.

If on a slower multi and mainly trade wind sailing, maybe it would not be so bad.

The reason for a light long powercat were explained in full in that post that 44ft CC linked to and I'll add that in all the miles i've done, I see a lot of Mono cruisers motoring in wind that a perfomance cat will sail in.

The areas I will cruise in seems to be predominatly fan on or fan off.

Fan on, it is fine to sail, but the anchorages (if you can call them that) at the other end may well be uncomfortable to dangerous.

Have a look at this bit of video for an idea of anchorages I want to go to
Nomad Sportfishing Bugatti Reefs
200 miles out and I don't want to be there when it's 20+ knots, but if sailing, I would have to.

Fan off is when you want to be at these places, and you'll want to get there at better than the 4-6 knots that your average monohull yacht will motor at.

I am aiming at 1 litre/NM as do most efficient powerboats, at a speed of around 8 knots which should well be achievable on 1 X 65 engine (I have 2). If heading out to the above reef I could wind her up in a decreasing swell to about 14 knots using a bit more fuel, but on most long haul passages she will alternate between engines for maximum economy.

These guys get around that economy on this
Cruising Under Power Southeast Asia in a Converted Fishing Boat

With a good article on costs here
Untitled Document

These guys get similar
Idlewild Expedition

In parts of the world where I mainly plan to cruise,South East Asia like in the above link , fuel is cheap but new rigs and sailcloth and the expertiese are not.

ADD; I also had a better chance of keeping the financier happy on this vessel. She felt (and fair enough) that a fast 50ft sailing cat could well be a handfull for the 2 of us as we get older.

Dave
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Old 04-12-2007, 04:39   #23
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Kanani is decidedly not playing fair. But then again, If I never hoist a sail do I have to ever replace my sails and rigging??

I believe diesel fuel just hit $4.00 a gallon here in Florida. I have a friend with a 41ft Maxim with twin 370hp gas engines which burn around 60 gallons an hour at hull planing speed. Now..to do the math...... let's see..... $4 x 60 gal per hour times say 8 hours of cruising = .."Gulp"... I do believe that equals a new jib.


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Fuel costs etc in the power boat are irrelivent because few people ever use the things because of fuel costs. They just sit at the dock for people to come down and sleep on them over the weekend.
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:11   #24
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Going the other way of fuel costs in Penang at RM1.58 or .53 cents Australian

Quote:
Tuesday, December 4, 2007
1.58 Malaysian Ringgit = 0.53388 Australian Dollar
1.58 Australian Dollar (AUD) = 4.67596 Malaysian Ringgit


Quote:

theedgedaily.com

26-10-2007: Diesel price much lower than other countries
by B Suresh Ram
Email us your feedback at fd@bizedge.com


KUALA LUMPUR: Domestic Trade and Consumer Affairs Minister Datuk Shafie Apdal yesterday clarified the price of diesel in Malaysia as very much cheaper compared with other countries.
He said the retail price of the fuel in the country is still lower despite the 30 sen increase per litre in February after the government reduced the subsidies due to higher oil prices. Replying to a question from Datuk Seri Syed Razlan Syed Putra Jamalullail (BN-Arau) at Parliament, he said unsubsidised diesel would cost more than RM2 per litre. Instead, Malaysian consumers were paying RM1.58 per litre for subsidised diesel.


and the sails on a 50 foot cat (nice main and quality heady) costing about $15,000 AUD, that would allow me to motor for 28,302 miles Approx.

Thats a trip around the world and then some. (Circumference of Earth = 24,859.82 miles)

Then the cost of rig and deck hardware is probably another 2 trips around the world.

Dave
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Old 04-12-2007, 05:17   #25
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<I would get an RV before a powerboat...>

Ditto -- having had both, but my domestic manager would reverse the order...
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Old 04-12-2007, 06:50   #26
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A buddy of mine spends $200 every time his Carver 33 leaves the dock. I don't think that I've spent $200 on fuel for my sailboats since 1995. Price, though, should not be the issue. Some people like the flexibility of power and other like the rush of managing the wind. It is a matter of personal preference.
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Old 04-12-2007, 07:30   #27
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Heck, I just bought 4 gallons of diesel fuel in September. I just might be looking for another 4 gallons in January.

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Originally Posted by Pura Vida View Post
A buddy of mine spends $200 every time his Carver 33 leaves the dock. I don't think that I've spent $200 on fuel for my sailboats since 1995. Price, though, should not be the issue. Some people like the flexibility of power and other like the rush of managing the wind. It is a matter of personal preference.
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:39   #28
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Quote:
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Sailboats are absolutely more expensive to operate and own, over the long haul. You have to consider the cost of all running and standing rigging, sails, haul outs, beer, fishing gear (that actually gets used), refrigeration (that actually gets used), ground tackle (that actually gets used) etc.
so by your argument I would assume the costs are the same. why would you say sail is more expensive if it just sits at the dock? if you leave the dock then you must consider fuel cost of a powerboat.
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Old 04-12-2007, 09:58   #29
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so by your argument I would assume the costs are the same. why would you say sail is more expensive if it just sits at the dock? if you leave the dock then you must consider fuel cost of a powerboat.
I think that my post might be best taken, "A little tongue in cheek".

I have delivered several trawlers and sport fishers up & down the ICW. I shuddered every time that I had to pull in and take on 500g of fuel.

I had engine problems on one trip and the bill was $2700 for something that I would have done myself, on my boat. All they did was replace an exhaust manifold elbow on a Cummins.
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Old 04-12-2007, 15:05   #30
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if you leave the dock then you must consider fuel cost of a powerboat.
If you leave the dock on your sailboat you should be honest with yourself and add up the cost of wear and tear on rig, deck hardware and sails.

On your average mono this can probably be mitigated somewhat with secondhand sails.

Performance multi's (and Mono's), especially 1 off's or limited build numbers, won't be able to find second hand sails to suit and probably won't be willing to accept the lack of performance and reliability associated with second hand sails.

Dave
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