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Old 01-01-2012, 09:04   #31
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

Thanks for all the great posts. Ex-Calif and Minaret might be right about the double halyard. I think I can see them in this pic. This vessel has already had some modifications. The helm was wheel forward and was moved and spun a 180. It looks like the sails might have been recut for the helm move because the clew of the main looks higher than the drawings. The upside of this is that there is no room for a bimini at the back end. They added the forward steps to the sea also. Did you guys happen to notice the bridgedeck clearance. It looks like about 3' to me. That doesn't suck.
Yes, I am a party animal and you are all invited on board and Deck Officer can park his hot rod on the deck if I get to drive it.
Happy New Year BOB
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:26   #32
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pirate Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
This one has been up for sale for a year or 2 and the price keeps dropping. It is a 64' traditional design open bridgedeck cat with modified "V" hulls. The rig consists of round tube masts and the sails have webbing straps around the mast.
2008 Constellation Yachts Gaff Rigged Schooner Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I'm just looking for general comments on the boat and rig.
Pros in no particular order.
1. Big boat and alot of bang for the buck
Very nice... no comment on the price.. I start at the back... usually stop around the 4th figure...
2. Fairly new with low hours
Thats good...
3. 6 electric winches
So's this...
4. Fully equipped with almost everything including modern electronics
Very nice... love special effects for the visitors/guests to play with...
5. V hulled with daggerboards should point upwind well
Yup
6. Fairly light for it's size
Should carry a better load than a round hull cat... and maintain better performance..
Cons in no particular order
1. Absolutely no shade or weather protection
Easy to remedy in an aerodynamic and eye catching way..
2. No comfortable seating
Buy some beanbags for on deck
3. I found on another website that the LWL is about 50'. With V- hulls and the LWL at 64' I am concerned about excessive pitching.
Don't look like a 14ft foot overhang in the pic... balance your loads you'll be fine.. heavy in the middle... light elsewhere...
4. I'm guessing the the sail webbing straps could bunch up or bind frequently making this big boat a much bigger PIA. I havn't seen these straps before but alot of traditional designs use ropes instead. BTW The Wharrams have a similar rig but use a luff sleeve.
Not as bad as you think...
5. V-hulls turn slower
I'd dispute that.. if you know how to tack a cat... my Wharrams only ever stalled on purpose... when I wanted to do a 3 point turn in restricted space..

So, did I miss anything? Anybody have any first hand experience with this type of rig. Just thought I'd mention that we set a record high of 56 degrees with rain yesterday. Global warming is real at least in Montana. BOB
PS Happy New Year
I've owned and sailed Gaff Wings... you've booms on her which will make life easy... great stuff... boat looks gorgeous...
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Old 01-01-2012, 09:54   #33
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

Some have expressed concerns about the plywood construction. For me it is irrelevant if done right and I beleive it was. I would like to point out that the boat was constructed with 1" Okoume below the waterline. I found a price of $265 per 4X8 sheet online so we can assume it's not a cheap build. I'll bet that's a stronger hull than most. Try smashing a hammer through your standard FG hull and then do the same with 1" ply.

Boatman, thanks for your input. I think the difference of 14' between LOA and LWL is because the rudders are outboard and the hull does taper back aft. So, I'm guessing 7' forward and 7' aft. Just guessing. BOB
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:52   #34
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

That's actually a really strange and interesting arrangement with the halyards. It appears to be a peak and throat halyard rigged to a special gaff bridle with blocks which allow the peak of the gaff to be higher than the mast while still being properly tensioned by the peak halyard. Haven't seen a gaff bridle set up quite like that before. I like it, lets you get a bit more SF in the sail without a taller rig. Now she just needs reefing topmasts with topsails and a fisherman and you're good to go!
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:56   #35
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

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Some have expressed concerns about the plywood construction. For me it is irrelevant if done right and I beleive it was. I would like to point out that the boat was constructed with 1" Okoume below the waterline. I found a price of $265 per 4X8 sheet online so we can assume it's not a cheap build. I'll bet that's a stronger hull than most. Try smashing a hammer through your standard FG hull and then do the same with 1" ply.

Boatman, thanks for your input. I think the difference of 14' between LOA and LWL is because the rudders are outboard and the hull does taper back aft. So, I'm guessing 7' forward and 7' aft. Just guessing. BOB

As a proffesional shipwright who has replaced a lot of rotten plywood, I can tell you it is not irrelevant. We call ply boats by various names, like rot-box, tissue boats (cause you use 'em and throw 'em away), etc. The longevity just is not there, no matter how it was built. You might get 20-30 yrs. in a really well built ply boat before serious problems set in. Not good enough IMHO. Unless it's a dinghy...
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:08   #36
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pirate Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

I think you'll find quite a few good old ply boats around...
one offs by a good yard from plans tend to be to a much better standard than production boats.. material used, skilled labour etc...
I delivered an old ply 35ft mono from Ireland to the Med... been neglected on a mooring for years..
Teak decks were shot but the hull was sound as a .... and thats sounder than a Euro...
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:21   #37
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

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Yes, I am a party animal and you are all invited on board and Deck Officer can park his hot rod on the deck if I get to drive it.
Happy New Year BOB
Sure you can drive it. Unlike my homebuilt electric scooter, nobody has ever got hurt driving the Track-T. 5 out of 5 on the scooter wound up on their rear ends, if it was a bull in the rodeo, would have a perfect record, and this is after a pre-flight where I explain to them all torque available at zero rpm.
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:31   #38
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

Minaret, I'm sure that the gaff system was part of the overall design to make it ICW compliant. Lower the gaffs and the big sticks just barely make it. I know you have tons more experiance than me but Boatman is correct in there are lots of old ply boats still afloat. Do you think that a proper glassing/epoxy technique could or should have been used on the old ones you have repaired which would have made them more impervious to the elements? And how is ply any different than balsa core or any core? If water is getting in then you're f**ked. Or more precisely your wallet is. I'm not arguing just trying to start a discussion.
On a side note. The forum members got to check out Minarets ride. It's there in his images. That's a nice boat. BOB
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Old 01-01-2012, 13:09   #39
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

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Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
Minaret, I'm sure that the gaff system was part of the overall design to make it ICW compliant. Lower the gaffs and the big sticks just barely make it. I know you have tons more experiance than me but Boatman is correct in there are lots of old ply boats still afloat. Do you think that a proper glassing/epoxy technique could or should have been used on the old ones you have repaired which would have made them more impervious to the elements? And how is ply any different than balsa core or any core? If water is getting in then you're f**ked. Or more precisely your wallet is. I'm not arguing just trying to start a discussion.
On a side note. The forum members got to check out Minarets ride. It's there in his images. That's a nice boat. BOB
Making an effort for shorter sticks and ICW compliance does make sense for that boat. And while there are some old ply boats around, I think "lots" is optimistic. A few is more like it, and they are staring their demise in the face. A 35 yr old ply boat that is actually totally free of rot and has been repair free for it's life I find hard to believe, unless it spent half it's life under cover on the hard. I have worked on many ply boats that were brought in to the yard, the owner certain that they are "sound as a lb", but when I start poking around in the guts and get out my sounding hammer and moisture meter, they are almost always very sad with the result. Delams, damp ply, rot, etc. Almost every time. We also happen to have a very profitable sideline in repairing Seattles vast fleet of aging houseboats, almost all of which are built of ply. These are the true definition of rot-box, I could show you pictures of fungal rot in ply that would make you want to puke. Obviously not the same as a well built ply boat, but not that different either. A proper glassing technique only goes so far, at some point water will make it's way into the ply, and it will result in rot. It's really not that different than balsa core, except the ply is relied on for most of the strength and so will fail much sooner when it rots. But I wouldn't recommend a boat with balsa core either, having seen acres of rotten balsa core as well. Solid lam or foam core all the way. If the boat was priced accordingly (saw a big ply monohull schooner this size for less than 100k recently) I would consider it, but at that price I wouldn't. For that kind of money I want a boat I can pass on to my kids when I'm gone, not one that will be worth half what I paid for it due to structural issues in ten or twenty years. Organic material does not do well in a marine environment. There are many ways to mitigate this, but all of them just slow the process of rot, they don't prevent it. It is inevitable. On a boat built without organic materials in the structure, as long as you keep up the maintenance of systems and cosmetics it will last for much longer than you will. I feel safer investing my time and money in that, but to each their own...

Oh, and glad you like Wanderbird. She's getting there. Another year or two and we'll be shoving off ourselves. If you really like her you can pick one up for substantially less than this ply schooner. They have solid glass hulls and most have all furling ketch rigs. Sparkman and Stephens design; it took Olin Stephens three and a half years to draw this design for Nauticat, one of his longest design projects. As a result she does not sail like a motorsailor, other than the windage from the pilothouse. Great boats. I think this ones listed at about 300k.




I sure like the layout on mine a lot better than this one though. And it's pretty hammered, even though they are asking a lot. I bet you could beat them up on the price though.
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Old 01-01-2012, 13:23   #40
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

A pantry the boat has a pantry and an across the way.I have an up there and back here but no pantry or across the way. Wow
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Old 01-01-2012, 22:55   #41
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

Ahoy Minaret,
A great boat you have posted. I appreciate it.
You seem to have a bias against plywood, or maybe wood in general. It is certainly easier to buy a plastic boat and if it doesn't have the blisters, etc., it will be very low maintenance, unless it is cored with balsa. Wharram's idea is to use plywood and wood in general, because it is easily obtainable and more easily repaired overseas. It is sustainable.
This boat is not a Wharram, but it will probably be as repairable as any other woodenboat, strip planked, or double diagonal. The fact that it is built of wood and epoxy glass is not a detriment. I tend to shy away from fiberglass because it is very heavy for its physical properties.
I looked on the Constellation Yachts website for the extensive photos they have there for the build and also found the broker's video survey of the boat. It's hard to say when a one off like this is put on the market, what it's worth. It is a one of a kind, and if someone wanted something like this, then it would be a bargain.
I do like fiberglass yachts, and I like wood too.
Maybe Nigel Irens dropped into the Wharram zone and now we see the viability of Wharram, not going too much toward the charter/racing crowd.
My best to you in the New Year and have a trip on a Wharram someday.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:38   #42
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

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Ahoy Minaret,
A great boat you have posted. I appreciate it.
You seem to have a bias against plywood, or maybe wood in general. It is certainly easier to buy a plastic boat and if it doesn't have the blisters, etc., it will be very low maintenance, unless it is cored with balsa. Wharram's idea is to use plywood and wood in general, because it is easily obtainable and more easily repaired overseas. It is sustainable.
This boat is not a Wharram, but it will probably be as repairable as any other woodenboat, strip planked, or double diagonal. The fact that it is built of wood and epoxy glass is not a detriment. I tend to shy away from fiberglass because it is very heavy for its physical properties.
I looked on the Constellation Yachts website for the extensive photos they have there for the build and also found the broker's video survey of the boat. It's hard to say when a one off like this is put on the market, what it's worth. It is a one of a kind, and if someone wanted something like this, then it would be a bargain.
I do like fiberglass yachts, and I like wood too.
Maybe Nigel Irens dropped into the Wharram zone and now we see the viability of Wharram, not going too much toward the charter/racing crowd.
My best to you in the New Year and have a trip on a Wharram someday.
If I have any prejudice towards wood, it is as a result of owning a number of wood boats, the largest being a Garden Porpoise 44'. While all of the construction methods you mention have merits, strip planking or double diagonal are very different animals than plywood construction. And I don't think plywood and glass is a totally non-viable construction method, I just don't think longevity is it's strong suit. A cost-effective custom build is. I have seen and worked on some venerable old ply boats, including the Sea Dart, Tristan Jones old boat of Incredible Voyage fame. It ended up in our yard in Seattle in the late 90's, looking very crusty. We made her pretty again and now she is a museum piece in Idaho. So they can last with enough maintenance and a good build. I just can't recommend spending that kind of money on one myself, though.

Tristan Jones Web Site - Sea Dart Visit
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:00   #43
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

Let's ignore the plywood for a moment and just discuss the rig.
It seems like schooners are out and ketchs are in. I've heard that a ketch handles better than a schooner. There was that post about putting a pic of a schooner on your wall. So, Ex-Calif, what type of boat did your brother have? And do you think a couple of electric winches would have made it easier and speedier. Could 2 guys with practice just time it right and raise the sails at about the same rate as a typical sloop rig? BTW The gaff is carbon fiber so it is not as heavy as most. BOB Thanks everyone
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:20   #44
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Re: Comments on gaff rigged schooner cat

ketch or schooner rig down wind is about as much use as a 4x4 on a racetrack,,lol, much better one big mast that you can hang big head sails off,,
though if you never go any where the twin 100 hp may come in handy......
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Old 02-01-2012, 09:37   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab
Let's ignore the plywood for a moment and just discuss the rig.
It seems like schooners are out and ketchs are in. I've heard that a ketch handles better than a schooner. There was that post about putting a pic of a schooner on your wall. So, Ex-Calif, what type of boat did your brother have? And do you think a couple of electric winches would have made it easier and speedier. Could 2 guys with practice just time it right and raise the sails at about the same rate as a typical sloop rig? BTW The gaff is carbon fiber so it is not as heavy as most. BOB Thanks everyone
Here are three shots of Ann. The rig originally was a ketch rig. You can see the aft chain plates no longer in use. PO removed the aft mast to make single handing easier and also to make room for the large pilot house that was added later.

You can also see the windlass at the base of the mast. Windlass is used on the halyard while gaff halyard is manually hauled. There is a manual winch on the aft side of the mast that can be used. Also that is where the three mainsail reef lines come down as well as the lazy jack lines.

I think with practice two people could get the main up in a couple of minutes if nothing snags. Remembering that part of the slowness is that the main halyard is 2:1. On the starboard side if the mast the two foresail halyard reside. By the time the sails are up there is a heck of a lot of rope piled ip at the mast base - LOL.

My brother is basically shuttling between Langkawi and Phuket and the surrounding islands as he learns the boat and how to sail it. He plans to return with it to Ovz sometime in the first quarter.

He recently reported that the boat sails very poorly downwind. the main blanks the jib easily. The PO discussed that and built a downwind sail that is basically a square rig gaff hung on the front of the mast. All other sails a doused. We haven't flown that sail or rig but I presume it will be sort of like sailing spinnaker only.
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