Circumnavigation w/o liferaft

[Tnflakbait]

Well, I will be heading offshore from Mexico to the Marquesas with no life raft. I have no worries about that particular aspect of the voyage.

[BigCat]

Hi, Gideon That is a surprisingly high figure. Six months ago I was quoted $2 USD per pound for infusion vinylester, and $2.50 per pound for fire-resistant vinylester. This is Reichhold's Dion 9300 with 1.5% antimony trioxide added. This is through the U.S. dealer Composites One. See: http://www.reichhold.com/docs/bullet...0FR%209300.pdf for the resin's properties. I would be discouraged by the figures you have, too. I wonder if you could do better by shopping around?

[fastcat435]

Yes It is high but do not forget that we use High grade epoxy made for infusion and over the last 6 months the oil prices have gone up by 20 %.I have shopped around , we use 88000 LBS of resin per year so that is worth wile , we cannot use Vinylester because of the poor infusion qualitys , with both polyester and vinylester you can only vacuum at 50 % becasue otherwise the stirene starts to boil.
Thanks and greetings

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Southern Star

Really, don't you think that rants directed at people who's opinions differ from your own (even if they are less experienced than yourself in offshore sailing) will only operate so as to stifle discussion? Afterall, discussion is what this site is all about.

I was going to write something similar yesterday - but I couldn't work out who the argument was aimed at. and then forgot

[BigCat]

Hi, Gideon Yes, my prices are probably also going to be 20% higher, as well. Your resin prices seem very high to me, but then I am buying in a larger, perhaps more competitive, market where the shipping costs are probably much less. I don't have first hand experience, but Derek Kelsall's clients are using polyester at some very high vacuums. I don't see why high vacuums would be needed, however, as long as you get all of the air bubbles out. I have seen a polyester sample made with hand layup followed by vacuum bagging to remove the air, and it had no perceptible air bubbles at all. (I am experienced in old-fashioned hand layup fiberglass work, so I know air bubbles when I see them.) What are the properties of your resin? Tim Dunn, aka BigCat

[fastcat435]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Hi, Gideon Yes, my prices are probably also going to be 20% higher, as well. Your resin prices seem very high to me, but then I am buying in a larger, perhaps more competitive, market where the shipping costs are probably much less. I don't have first hand experience, but Derek Kelsall's clients are using polyester at some very high vacuums. I don't see why high vacuums would be needed, however, as long as you get all of the air bubbles out. I have seen a polyester sample made with hand layup followed by vacuum bagging to remove the air, and it had no perceptible air bubbles at all. (I am experienced in old-fashioned hand layup fiberglass work, so I know air bubbles when I see them.) What are the properties of your resin? Tim Dunn, aka BigCat

The epoxy resin we use has a viscosity of around 450 at 75 F. very thin and fluid. With resin infusion contrary to hand lamination or Vacuum bagging it helps to get the maximum vacuum pressure available.
If we infuse a hull immediately after putting the vacuum on we use 700 kilo,s of resin. if we keep the vacuum on for 24 hours and we infuse the same hull we use 565 kilo,s of resin so keeping the high vacuum on for a while compacts the laminate in order to minimize resin intake.
It is not possible to take vacuum levels higher than 50 to 60 % with polyester of vinylester while with epoxy 98 % is possible.

greetings

[44'cruisingcat]

For those who doubt that a multihull could possibly be habitable inverted, take a look:

Cammas Groupama

The hulls aren't even in the water - the boat is floating on its crossbeam. Obviously cruising boats are heavier, but they can still be bouyant.

[BigCat]

"The hulls aren't even in the water - the boat is floating on its crossbeam. Obviously cruising boats are heavier, but they can still be bouyant" Hmmm-a big piece of the boat is missing. I'd say it was built a little too lightly-why else would so much be missing? Also, being a racing boat, they wouldn't have been carrying every possible personal effect and luxury. Sorry, this kind of argument will never trump actual math.

[Alan Wheeler]

When posters like 2Hulls insult people like Gideon, I give them a flame.

BigCat, that's enough of that. It will not be tolerated here.
Now, If someone would like to point me in the direction of an offending post by 2Hulls, I will deal with that as well.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by BigCat

"The hulls aren't even in the water - the boat is floating on its crossbeam. Obviously cruising boats are heavier, but they can still be bouyant" Hmmm-a big piece of the boat is missing. I'd say it was built a little too lightly-why else would so much be missing? Also, being a racing boat, they wouldn't have been carrying every possible personal effect and luxury. Sorry, this kind of argument will never trump actual math.

Mate it's not an argument, it's an actual FACT. Groupama is floating upside down, and is completely habitable. In fact I'd bet there isn't even any water in the main hull. As I said, cruising boats will be heavier, but they still can be bouyant.

What I don't understand is why you would argue against this, while at the same time claiming to have designed a cruising boat that would be bouyant inverted. Don't you think anyone else could have thought of doing this?

[David M]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

BigCat, that's enough of that. It will not be tolerated here.
Now, If someone would like to point me in the direction of an offending post by 2Hulls, I will deal with that as well.

Perhaps it is time to lock this thread? It is already dead in the water from the thread authors original question. No more original information with respect to "liferaft or not'" is being produced.

[Steve Rust]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned about when a boat is inverted and / or structurally damaged is that she is more likely to suffer further damage and to potentially break up - given she is (probably?!) not designed to also be upside down or to be as strong with structural damage.

Does this mean one should always have a liferaft on a Cat? (or a Mono).

IMO not neccesarily - but it would be wise to realise that their could always be circumstances where your vessel no longer exists in a meaningful manner, even if large chunks are still floating.......whether upside down or not.

The boats coming apart does not seem to be a problem from several incidents I have read about. We have the prevoiusly mention Rose Noelle, a boat designed and built by the owner. Phil Weld's racing trimaran Gulf Streamer capsized in the Atlantic and the crew was eventually rescued. The boat was later picked up whole by a Russian cargo ship and taken to Odessa. Another racing trimaran Atrium was capsized off of San Fransico. Crew survived and the owner tried to salvage the boat but lost track of it. It later washed ashore in Micronesia breaking apart as it came across the reef. The Horstman trimaran Meridian capsized in a hurricane off the East Coast in the mid 70's. They had a liferaft tethered and holding supplies in case the tri sank or broke up. The liferaft eventually broke free and was lost. Of the crew of four, three survived several weeks in the upturned hull until rescue. The owner, a diabetic, died because of lack of insulin. This boat was also reportedly picked up by a cargo ship. The Piver Nimble Trident capsized off the California coast and of the crew of three, two survived around 70 days untill rescued although the owner died a few days later. The deaths are atributed to the fact that the owner became unhinged and thought it all part of God's plan and anything they did to facilitate survival was going against his will. He threw much of their supplies overboard. An interesting story to read. Some of these were plywood backyard built boats and they all held together. I think it would be fair to say that those built today are a bit stronger. It is important that you be able to gain access into the hulls and that the boat float high enough. I don't see how you could survive long clinging to the upturned hulls. One other thought is that it would be easier to spot a capsized 35 to 45 foot boat than a small liferaft bobbing around in the waves.

[BigCat]

The question of how habitable an upside down multihull, is of course, central to the question of whether or not to carry a liferaft, as staying with the capsized or holed multi is a viable alternative to a liferaft. I agree that a cruising multihull can be made habitable upside down. I have done the math, and assert that the average multihull will not float very high at all without the addition of tanks or foam to the intrinsic floatation of the laminate core. The fact that a racing boat that was so lightly built, probably of carbon fiber and epoxy, that it broke up, floated high has little bearing on the issue. The ultralight tri seems to be floating on its crossbeams, which are large and placed above the deck, which is not an arrangement usually found on cruising cats. Further, cruising cats weigh a lot more and carry a lot more stuff. Another thread on this site is discussing the loss of an Outremer off the coast of Spain recently. Apparently their liferaft failed them, which is yet another in a long line of stories about the failure of liferafts to preserve life. If it isn't obvious, I am of the make your boat habitable school, and not of the abandon ship school. Chris White calls them "death rafts," to emphasize that he is of the stay with the boat school.

[Nordic cat]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

The epoxy resin we use has a viscosity of around 450 at 75 F. very thin and fluid. With resin infusion contrary to hand lamination or Vacuum bagging it helps to get the maximum vacuum pressure available.
It is not possible to take vacuum levels higher than 50 to 60 % with polyester of vinylester while with epoxy 98 % is possible.

greetings

Hi Gideon. The 450 figure you quote for viscosity, what units are used?

Your statement regarding polyester is not correct! I an presently doing some work for the worlds largest manufacturer of wind turbine blades. These blades are up to 62 metres long, and are made using balsa and infusion. They work at 80% vacuum, until there is resin coming out of the mould, then they drop the vacuum to 60% for the final part.

Vacuum bagging can be done at exactly the same pressures as infusion, excess resin is absorbed in a special layer designed for this. Only issue is to ensure that you don't starve the fibres.

Regards

Alan

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Steve Rust

It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Abraham Lincoln

Steve,

I believe this quote belongs to Mark Twain.

Kevin