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View Poll Results: Circumnavigating Cat without liferaft
Yes 21 17.36%
Depends on the Cat 20 16.53%
No way no how 80 66.12%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 19-02-2008, 12:05   #91
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David M I couldn't agree more. For the addition of less than 100 lbs. (and very little money in relation to the value of your entire boat and your lives), you have redundancy where it may matter the most.

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Old 19-02-2008, 12:30   #92
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Vacation-type boats probably need lots of safety equipment.

The rudest and most opinionated posters discussing this issue seem to be the ones who give no basis in personal experience, leaving me to suspect that they are just scared landlubbers who think reading a couple of books will make them experts.************************ I have sailed about 20,000 nm, and have experienced some fairly serious weather offshore. I wouldn't leave a floating boat for a liferaft for any money, and I think that is the popular opinion among the experienced. ****************** I forget the name of the book, but there was a book about a Sidney-Hobart race that turned bad. The account of one crew that kept getting turned over and washed out of their liferaft was particularly harrowing.****************** I think a more sensible approach would be to consider potential problems on a case by case basis, and plan for them. The main reason for leaving a floating boat would probably be fire, so the place to start, if possible, is by planning a boat where that is unlikely to be a problem. ***************** My plan for this is to use fire-retardant resin when building, have very good fuses on main power lines, have fire-extinguishing systems in the engine rooms, and have a stainless steel surround at the cook stove. ******************** Likewise, during the design stage is the time to consider the condition of the boat if it is hulled or overturned. Vertically centered excess floatation and multiple evenly spaced water tight compartments is the answer here. ************************ It seems to me that the real problem is going to sea in a boat built for vacationing. If I were wed to the idea of voyaging in a boat which was basically designed for maximizing interior space and pleasant accommodations for weekends and vacations, I'd start worrying about what equipment I could bolt to it to reduce the hazards of such a vessel, too. Maybe I'd even get rude, opinionated, and obnoxious, to reassure myself as to the soundness of my plan, as well.******************I don't think Gideon is always careful in his remarks, either. However, I think he knows far more than all of his critics, combined. Hey Gideon, you never did get back to me with the specs for your epoxy resin, from our vinylester vs. epoxy discussion. I'm still curious. What brand/ mix do you use? The specs are probably on the web.
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Old 19-02-2008, 12:50   #93
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The rudest and most opinionated posters discussing this issue seem to be the ones who give no basis in personal experience, leaving me to suspect that they are just scared landlubbers who think reading a couple of books will make them experts.************************ I have sailed about 20,000 nm, and have experienced some fairly serious weather offshore. I wouldn't leave a floating boat for a liferaft for any money, and I think that is the popular opinion among the experienced. ****************** I forget the name of the book, but there was a book about a Sidney-Hobart race that turned bad. The account of one crew that kept getting turned over and washed out of their liferaft was particularly harrowing.****************** I think a more sensible approach would be to consider potential problems on a case by case basis, and plan for them. The main reason for leaving a floating boat would probably be fire, so the place to start, if possible, is by planning a boat where that is unlikely to be a problem. ***************** My plan for this is to use fire-retardant resin when building, have very good fuses on main power lines, have fire-extinguishing systems in the engine rooms, and have a stainless steel surround at the cook stove. ******************** Likewise, during the design stage is the time to consider the condition of the boat if it is hulled or overturned. Vertically centered excess floatation and multiple evenly spaced water tight compartments is the answer here. ************************ It seems to me that the real problem is going to sea in a boat built for vacationing. If I were wed to the idea of voyaging in a boat which was basically designed for maximizing interior space and pleasant accommodations for weekends and vacations, I'd start worrying about what equipment I could bolt to it to reduce the hazards of such a vessel, too. Maybe I'd even get rude, opinionated, and obnoxious, to reassure myself as to the soundness of my plan, as well.******************I don't think Gideon is always careful in his remarks, either. However, I think he knows far more than all of his critics, combined. Hey Gideon, you never did get back to me with the specs for your epoxy resin, from our vinylester vs. epoxy discussion. I'm still curious. What brand/ mix do you use? The specs are probably on the web.
It is also bad to assume that because you have more sea time than others that you inherently know more than others. Learning is a lifetime experience and to think that there is no more to learn is simply arrogant and potentially dangerous. I'm sure you agree.

Did you learn about the Sydney-Hobart race by reading about it or experiencing it? Did you learn anything, such as other peoples mistakes, by reading about them? My point is, things can be learned by reading so never discount that although I agree that experience is the best teacher.

I think that you may be taking peoples disagreements with your rig the wrong way. Its not their inexperience as to why some are disagreeing...its that people have different ways of accomplishing the same things....both of which can be very successful. Your rig works best for you and for some others a Marconi (Bermuda) rig works best for them. Thats how life is. Choice is a good thing.

I think you may want to include yourself to your undisclosed list of who is being opinionated. There is nothing wrong with being opinionated..what matters is how you present your opinions. I find it helpful to present many of my opinions as questions...assuming that I could be wrong at times, which frequently I am.
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Old 19-02-2008, 13:32   #94
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... things can be learned by reading so never discount that although I agree that experience is the best teacher...
Experience may be an excellent teacher, but her technique is all messed up.
She gives you the test, and only then provides the lesson.
Most experienced teachers would use the reverse order - lesson then test.

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Old 19-02-2008, 14:10   #95
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Experience may be an excellent teacher, but her technique is all messed up.
She gives you the test, and only then provides the lesson.
Most experienced teachers would use the reverse order - lesson then test.
Gord, you are too kind.

Experience is a cold hearted bitch who does not give her lessons freely.
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Old 19-02-2008, 14:21   #96
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Do you go to the clinic and ask for the least experienced physician? Do you go to the garage and ask for the least experienced mechanic? Experience gives you the opportunity to learn, even if some seem less able than others to benefit from their experiences. And yes, I agree that reading is good. I have read, literally, hundreds of books relating to sailing. But the same as experience? I don't think you choose that when you put your money where your mouth is. I don't think you go to the garage and ask for the mechanic who has read the most books, but please, you'd rather they had never actually touched an engine! Some people do know more than others, even if it bruises your ego to acknowledge it. ***************************** I think most of us try to learn something new by studying, practicing, then experiencing. If you don't know more at the end than you did at the middle, then why bother? Yes, there are clueless bumblers who go to sea without study, such as, for example, Farley Mowat, who wrote, "The Boat that Wouldn't Float," but this is not how most people go about it. I read over a hundred relevant books before I sailed offshore, but it wasn't the same as doing it, and I knew more after I did it than I did before. Who wouldn't? This whole "self-esteem" movement has gone way too far. A wanna-be is not the equal of a has-done, and never will be. Pay your dues! If you want respect, earn it-or snivel about how the big boys just "aren't fair." Your choice.*****************This is not to defend argument "by authority," however. You will note that I give reasons when I express opinions, and not just attitude-in contrast to posters who offer neither experience nor reasoned arguments. Or is the use of logic also to be deemed unfair, as it doesn't treat the unreasoning as being sufficiently equal with the rational?***********And as far as European government standards go, do you really expect me to care about the opinions promulgated into regulations of a bunch of bureaucrats in Brussles? Why? If you need the nanny state to tuck you in at night, you'd better stay off the big, scary sea. Maybe you'll be safe in your liferaft if you inflate it in your bedroom.****************As far as the junk rig goes, I haven't brought it up in this thread. I have a great deal more to discuss than rigs, and many readers seem not to have noticed that my remarks about rigs are wider than junk vs. marconi-I'd prefer many kinds of unstayed rig to a marconi rig, and the design I am working on now has a rig that many would not consider to be a junk rig. ************ I favor freedom of choice, too, but I don't think respecting freedom of choice is the same as a surrendering the right to rational examination regarding the merits and demerits of a given choice. In fact, it is freedom of choice which makes rational examination necessary.
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Old 19-02-2008, 14:55   #97
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BigCat, I'm not sure how we went from a survey/discussion about whether you should take along a liferaft on a catamaran, to your views on: the importance of having practical experience before expressing an opinion; the 'self-esteem movement' (whatever that is); junk rigs (and other free-standing rigs that I apparently wouldn't consider to be a junk-rig); European standards for (presumably) production boats; freedom of choice (so long as it is a RATIONAL choice according to.....some very experienced authority on the topic, unless they are bureaucrats in Brussels, in which case it wouldn't matter how much practical experience they had).

Really, don't you think that rants directed at people who's opinions differ from your own (even if they are less experienced than yourself in offshore sailing) will only operate so as to stifle discussion? Afterall, discussion is what this site is all about.

In addition, it may be worth remembering an old adage: sometimes true insight comes out of the mouths of babes.

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Old 19-02-2008, 15:13   #98
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Brad, I was addressing the views of others expressed on this thread. I notice that my comments haven't stifled your self-expression, nor indeed do they seem to have motivated you to carefully read the thread, since you don't know why I addressed these issues in this thread.
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Old 19-02-2008, 15:20   #99
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That is why our cats are unsinkable and we standard supply them with a dingy and a life raft giving 3 choices if something happpens
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Old 19-02-2008, 15:33   #100
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Gideon, how much weight would it add to one of your cats to include fire-resistant additive? After all, if it isn't burning, there isn't much incentive to leave a floating boat.
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Old 19-02-2008, 17:02   #101
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Gord, you are too kind.

Experience is a cold hearted bitch who does not give her lessons freely.
ROFL...thats funny as hell...and true!
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Old 19-02-2008, 18:22   #102
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I joined this forum as I thought it would be a nice place to share ideas and experiences , whats with all the big ego's and slaging each other off. Nearly every thread gets high jacked by some dick head trying to blow his own trumpet.
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Old 19-02-2008, 19:01   #103
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I joined this forum as I thought it would be a nice place to share ideas and experiences , whats with all the big ego's and slaging each other off. Nearly every thread gets high jacked by some dick head trying to blow his own trumpet.
This thread is more on track: Zodiac issues liferaft safety warning When posters like 2Hulls insult people like Gideon, I give them a flame. 2Hulls hide is probably impervious, however. I have even less patience for namby-pamby types who sound like kindergarden teachers-"all opinions are equally valid." No, they're not. Some opinions are informed, and some are neither informed nor founded on logic. Check out a normal bell-shaped curve some time--that's how intelligence and similar traits are distributed. Nothing equal about it. My vote for the 3rd deviation below the mean goes to---
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Old 20-02-2008, 01:08   #104
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Gideon, how much weight would it add to one of your cats to include fire-resistant additive? After all, if it isn't burning, there isn't much incentive to leave a floating boat.
Good Morning Big Cat , it would not ad any weight just a high extra cost
The price for high quality infusion epoxy resin is around Euro 12 per kg or 8 Usd per lbs while fire resistand epoxy as used in the aeronautical production cost 3 to 4 times as much.
Now we use 1800 kilo of epoxy in a FastCat 455 or 4000 lbs or usd 32000,00 per boat and this is cost now triple that amount and ad 25 % of additional cost and this cat will cost usd 80.000,00 more to the customer ex sales tax import dury etc and that is a high cost.
We standard use fire resistant insulation in the engine rooms and automatic fire extinghuisers but adding another usd 80.000 or 15 % extra cost is a lot.
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Old 20-02-2008, 05:00   #105
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BigCat, nobody has said that all opinions are equal - only that everyone has the right to express theirs. I suspect that others are able to assess what weight to attach to what opinions without your self-serving imput on that subject as well.

Cheers (I suspect you need it)!

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