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View Poll Results: Circumnavigating Cat without liferaft
Yes 21 17.36%
Depends on the Cat 20 16.53%
No way no how 80 66.12%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-02-2008, 12:04   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
Right now? No. I don't need those things given a run a research boat for a living locally. When I do retire and buy a cat, I certainly will have those things. I consider them to be basic safety equipment...including a ditch bag with the equipment necessary for getting my location out to the rest of the world. The cat will probably be a little over 50 feet as I would like to explore a number of different oceans and the Mediterranean although a circumnavigation does not interest me all that much although who knows?...I may change my mind.

I won't be concerned with going 1/10th of a knot slower because I have a liferaft onboard. The joy is in the journey and not getting there fast.

We do agree Tim
I for sure agree that 1/10 of a knot does not make a diffrence but we all prefer a fast cruise over a slow cruise I think but correct me if I am wrong.
I do watch our weight during a long cruise , out of 200 gallons water capacity we only use a max of half and when down to 20 gals we start the water maker , we all want to arrive safely but on a voyage from Cape Town to Miami it does make a difference to cruise at 5.5 or at 11 knots
average speed .

Greetings

p.s. we carry all possible safety gear on these trips.
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:15   #62
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I agree, fast is fun but not at the expense of misery or a less safe journey.
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:34   #63
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I agree, fast is fun but not at the expense of misery or a less safe journey.
Yes I agree but speed can also sometimes mean added safety like running for weather.
It is our aim to build with the highest possible quality and that also means with the minimum number of problems.
It is just not possible to find a marine store around the corner in the middle of the Atlantic and trying to find a couple of stainless warps in St Helena is also impossible.
I have attached our standard tool and spare equipment that is delivered with every FastCat 435 etc
FastCat Tool List and Spare partsItemsQuantityPlastic Folding Tool Spanner set (size 6mm-24mm)1 eachCase Large SizeSocket set (size 5mm-32mm)1 eachHammer1Hack Saw1Screw Driver set with both plain and star (4 flat and 2 star)1Pliers (long nose, cutters and bullnose)1 eachVise Grip1Water Pump Pliers1Allen Keys ( 2,5mm- 10mm)1 eachOne Centure Punch1Spark Plug Sockets (16mm and 21mm)1 eachUniversal joint for socket set1Rachet handles( 1 Large and 1small)1 eachPower Bar for Sockets1Long sleved sockets (10mm-19mm)1 eachStanley knife 1Plastic Folding Tool Screw Driver Set (3 plane; 3 star)1 eachCase Small SizeStanley knife1Bull nose Pliers1Circlip Pliers1Long Nose pliers1Shifting Spanner1Screw Driver socket Set (5-12mm ; 3/16 - 7/16)1 eachSockets (5-16mm; 3/16 - 3/4)1 eachSpark Plug socket 16mm1Socket adapters2Racket Handle1Hammer1Allen Keys (1,5-6mm)1 eachStorage container for small bits and piecesPlastic Tool BoxMulti Meter1Soldering Iron1Real of solder1Drill Bit set (1-13mm)1 eachPosy drive setVariousBolt Cutter1Marine Grease1DIY two part epoxy set1Crimping tool for electrical1Precision Screw Driver set (flat and star only)1LED torch1Spare connecting wire for electrical. (10m Black; 10m Red)1 eachChalking Gun1Simpson Adhesive tube2Rubber Mallet1Galvinised U Shackles 4Wooden Plug set2Insulation Tape3Duck Tape2Spare Hack Saw Blades10Spare Stanley blades10Long Allen Key set (1,5-10mm)1 eachPlastic Compartment Spare Nylocks M6-M1210 eachStorage BoxSpare Bolts M6-M1210 eachElectrical connectors (Various)20 eachConnecting Blocks5Heat Shrink (2 sizes, 2 colours)0.5m eachFuses (various)5 eachFuse Holders5Heat Shrink Ferrels (3 Sizes)20 eachSpare Nodes (3 Types)1 eachChemicals For the BoatPolishing Wax (1 Litre)1Washing Wax (5litre)1Insect Pest Spray Tin 1Silversol Tin for Stianless polishing1Clean Green Degreeser (750ml)1Spray Wax1Q 20 lubrication oil1Q 10 penetrating oil1Water Maker SparesSet of Filters1Cleaning Syrup1Spare Sailing GearStainless U Shackles (Various)2 eachSplit pins (Various)5 eachBosons Chair1Sail repair Kit1Engine SparesOil Filters2Fuel Filters2Impellors2Propeller anode2Sail Drive Anode2Sacrificial Anode2Engine Oil10LGear Box Oil5LV Belts (2 types) 2 eachCordless DrillSet with two batteries and one charger1
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Old 11-02-2008, 13:01   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
It is just not possible to find a marine store around the corner in the middle of the Atlantic and trying to find a couple of stainless warps in St Helena is also impossible.
I have attached our standard tool and spare equipment that is delivered with every FastCat 435 etc
FastCat Tool List and Spare partsItemsQuantityPlastic Folding Tool Spanner set (size 6mm-24mm)1 eachCase Large SizeSocket set (size 5mm-32mm)1 eachHammer1Hack Saw1Screw Driver set with both plain and star (4 flat and 2 star)1Pliers (long nose, cutters and bullnose)1 eachVise Grip1Water Pump Pliers1Allen Keys ( 2,5mm- 10mm)1 eachOne Centure Punch1Spark Plug Sockets (16mm and 21mm)1 eachUniversal joint for socket set1Rachet handles( 1 Large and 1small)1 eachPower Bar for Sockets1Long sleved sockets (10mm-19mm)1 eachStanley knife 1Plastic Folding Tool Screw Driver Set (3 plane; 3 star)1 eachCase Small SizeStanley knife1Bull nose Pliers1Circlip Pliers1Long Nose pliers1Shifting Spanner1Screw Driver socket Set (5-12mm ; 3/16 - 7/16)1 eachSockets (5-16mm; 3/16 - 3/4)1 eachSpark Plug socket 16mm1Socket adapters2Racket Handle1Hammer1Allen Keys (1,5-6mm)1 eachStorage container for small bits and piecesPlastic Tool BoxMulti Meter1Soldering Iron1Real of solder1Drill Bit set (1-13mm)1 eachPosy drive setVariousBolt Cutter1Marine Grease1DIY two part epoxy set1Crimping tool for electrical1Precision Screw Driver set (flat and star only)1LED torch1Spare connecting wire for electrical. (10m Black; 10m Red)1 eachChalking Gun1Simpson Adhesive tube2Rubber Mallet1Galvinised U Shackles 4Wooden Plug set2Insulation Tape3Duck Tape2Spare Hack Saw Blades10Spare Stanley blades10Long Allen Key set (1,5-10mm)1 eachPlastic Compartment Spare Nylocks M6-M1210 eachStorage BoxSpare Bolts M6-M1210 eachElectrical connectors (Various)20 eachConnecting Blocks5Heat Shrink (2 sizes, 2 colours)0.5m eachFuses (various)5 eachFuse Holders5Heat Shrink Ferrels (3 Sizes)20 eachSpare Nodes (3 Types)1 eachChemicals For the BoatPolishing Wax (1 Litre)1Washing Wax (5litre)1Insect Pest Spray Tin 1Silversol Tin for Stianless polishing1Clean Green Degreeser (750ml)1Spray Wax1Q 20 lubrication oil1Q 10 penetrating oil1Water Maker SparesSet of Filters1Cleaning Syrup1Spare Sailing GearStainless U Shackles (Various)2 eachSplit pins (Various)5 eachBosons Chair1Sail repair Kit1Engine SparesOil Filters2Fuel Filters2Impellors2Propeller anode2Sail Drive Anode2Sacrificial Anode2Engine Oil10LGear Box Oil5LV Belts (2 types) 2 eachCordless DrillSet with two batteries and one charger1

So are the stainless warps an option?
I don't see what the above spare parts list has to do with safety and liferafts. All just plain commonsense stuff to have onboard a cruiser, and definately a minimum in my opinion.

Regards

Alan
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Old 11-02-2008, 13:23   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post
So are the stainless warps an option?
I don't see what the above spare parts list has to do with safety and liferafts. All just plain commonsense stuff to have onboard a cruiser, and definately a minimum in my opinion.

Regards

Alan
Yes you are rigth all these items should be on board of any serious cruiser and we supply them standard.and these are included in the empty weigth of the fastcat , It missed on yesterdays list.
Greetings
p.s. I have both bought a brand new Moody some years agon as well as a Halberg rassy and no tools where supplied at all besdies the small engine kit by Volvo penta and perkins
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Old 12-02-2008, 15:43   #66
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I guess everyone falls back to their own experience when trying to analyze things like this. My own experience is in data center design and in those terms this is a difference between having multiple redundant nodes and N+1 resiliancy. Having a clustered system with several individual points of failure means that you accept the risk that you will have to move from one system to another with no warning at any time and occur a window of risk. You do this because multiple low cost devices provide together are still not an expensive solution and lower the amount of downtime exponentially. At the opposite extreme is having something like a storage area network, where it's a single system built with N+1 redundancy, meaning all points of failure have been analysed, built and tested for so that any one component can fail without occuring an outage. It's very expensive and very time consuming process, they are literally the most infallible systems that people have devised (the test labs are themselves cost hundreds of millions) and in my years of designing data systems I have yet to see one ever go down. Our clustered systems have gone down and many times the redundant server or switch simply doesn't function because it wasn't in use and something is wrong or the failover doesn't go smoothly. It's never tested routinely because you know that even the test means risk and few can spare the downtime for such tests.

One of the reasons I got a multihull was to try to incorporate that N+1 resiliancy. It can't be perfect, but you can think out situation by situation, component by component, and plan for contingencies without having to go to the risk of abandoning ship.

It's not that I don't like the idea of a life raft, I want to find another solution for when a life raft would be needed because from my albeit very different experience in systems design points me to never rely on a system that isn't running, isn't instantly available, and whose contingencies are not routinely tested.

And there are the personal stories I read over and over where people go to use the life raft and it snaps away, flips or people get washed away trying to hold onto the life raft. Realistically when I think through the situation of using a life raft, I would have to walk down onto the transom of my boat in the open seas after a disaster, I can expect that I would have a broken limb and that I'm trying to pull someone unconsious, I'm trying to get them onboard to the life raft and I only have a few minutes to make the whole thing work. I'm just thinking that in that situation, I simply would never be physically capable of getting into the life raft. So I'm creating secure areas of positive floatation which can keep the boat afloat even in the event of amidships hull breach, I'm creating provisioned chambers in the forward sections for an inversion, I'm placing fire extinguishers in each hull and smoke alarms and fire access ports in the engine wells, it's a long list. If I had a monohull this wouldn't be possible and I would use a life raft, but in a multi I have more possibilities to create areas of sufficient positive floatation.

Just my opinion, and I greatly respect all others.
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Old 12-02-2008, 17:09   #67
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I answered "depends on the cat" . If I was unsure of the boat's ability to remain afloat when flooded, or if there were no provisons made for habitability inverted or flooded, then I would definitely want a liferaft.

But in a boat that has lots of positive bouyancy, and has been properly prepared, and has it's fuel tanks and engines seperated from the living areas, I would be willing to head out to sea without a raft, as long as there was a very good RIB or other type of dinghy ready to deploy quickly.

My reasoning is: it's generally accepted that you should stay with the "big" boat as long as possible - only use the liferaft when you have to step UP into it as they say. But if the boat literally CAN'T sink - it will remain afloat indefinitely, whether holed, broken in half or inverted, then the occassion when you step UP into the raft isn't going to happen.

The fact is, a liferaft doesn't guarantee your survival . This is why Autissier and Bullimore didn't use theirs - even though their boats were upside-down, and one of them still had it's keel attached - which would have greatly increased the risk of rapidly sinking.

So then the only likely reason to abandon the boat is fire or explosion. And unless this occurred during very severe weather, the RIB would serve to abandon ship.
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Old 12-02-2008, 19:33   #68
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The danger of fire can be reduced by using fireproof resin and soft furnishings.
Explosions can be reduced by being very careful with gas or eliminating it entirely from the boat and/or have a gas detector. I plan to use non flammable resin and paints when I get round to building my Harry. I probably will have a life raft but if circumstances were that bad, I'd almost certainly choose the dinghy with a decent parachute and have an immersion suit. One liferaft caused a broken coccyx on a mate of mine when the ballast sprung up and hit him in the bum. Captain Bligh crossed half the Pacific in an open boat.
Robert
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Old 12-02-2008, 22:08   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
Yes I agree but speed can also sometimes mean added safety like running for weather.
It is our aim to build with the highest possible quality and that also means with the minimum number of problems.
It is just not possible to find a marine store around the corner in the middle of the Atlantic and trying to find a couple of stainless warps in St Helena is also impossible.
I have attached our standard tool and spare equipment that is delivered with every FastCat 435 etc
FastCat Tool List and Spare partsItemsQuantityPlastic Folding Tool Spanner set (size 6mm-24mm)1 eachCase Large SizeSocket set (size 5mm-32mm)1 eachHammer1Hack Saw1Screw Driver set with both plain and star (4 flat and 2 star)1Pliers (long nose, cutters and bullnose)1 eachVise Grip1Water Pump Pliers1Allen Keys ( 2,5mm- 10mm)1 eachOne Centure Punch1Spark Plug Sockets (16mm and 21mm)1 eachUniversal joint for socket set1Rachet handles( 1 Large and 1small)1 eachPower Bar for Sockets1Long sleved sockets (10mm-19mm)1 eachStanley knife 1Plastic Folding Tool Screw Driver Set (3 plane; 3 star)1 eachCase Small SizeStanley knife1Bull nose Pliers1Circlip Pliers1Long Nose pliers1Shifting Spanner1Screw Driver socket Set (5-12mm ; 3/16 - 7/16)1 eachSockets (5-16mm; 3/16 - 3/4)1 eachSpark Plug socket 16mm1Socket adapters2Racket Handle1Hammer1Allen Keys (1,5-6mm)1 eachStorage container for small bits and piecesPlastic Tool BoxMulti Meter1Soldering Iron1Real of solder1Drill Bit set (1-13mm)1 eachPosy drive setVariousBolt Cutter1Marine Grease1DIY two part epoxy set1Crimping tool for electrical1Precision Screw Driver set (flat and star only)1LED torch1Spare connecting wire for electrical. (10m Black; 10m Red)1 eachChalking Gun1Simpson Adhesive tube2Rubber Mallet1Galvinised U Shackles 4Wooden Plug set2Insulation Tape3Duck Tape2Spare Hack Saw Blades10Spare Stanley blades10Long Allen Key set (1,5-10mm)1 eachPlastic Compartment Spare Nylocks M6-M1210 eachStorage BoxSpare Bolts M6-M1210 eachElectrical connectors (Various)20 eachConnecting Blocks5Heat Shrink (2 sizes, 2 colours)0.5m eachFuses (various)5 eachFuse Holders5Heat Shrink Ferrels (3 Sizes)20 eachSpare Nodes (3 Types)1 eachChemicals For the BoatPolishing Wax (1 Litre)1Washing Wax (5litre)1Insect Pest Spray Tin 1Silversol Tin for Stianless polishing1Clean Green Degreeser (750ml)1Spray Wax1Q 20 lubrication oil1Q 10 penetrating oil1Water Maker SparesSet of Filters1Cleaning Syrup1Spare Sailing GearStainless U Shackles (Various)2 eachSplit pins (Various)5 eachBosons Chair1Sail repair Kit1Engine SparesOil Filters2Fuel Filters2Impellors2Propeller anode2Sail Drive Anode2Sacrificial Anode2Engine Oil10LGear Box Oil5LV Belts (2 types) 2 eachCordless DrillSet with two batteries and one charger1
Can an owner opt out of this list and decide for himself what he needs and prefers?..saving himself some money.
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Old 13-02-2008, 06:42   #70
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Good post. Don't think for a second that your IT experience doesn't translate into boats. Although you have to learn to deal with the "analog" world, the logic you are using goes a long, long way toward making the right decision with boats. I'm also an ex Physics and computer guy (software).




Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog View Post
I guess everyone falls back to their own experience when trying to analyze things like this. My own experience is in data center design and in those terms this is a difference between having multiple redundant nodes and N+1 resiliancy. Having a clustered system with several individual points of failure means that you accept the risk that you will have to move from one system to another with no warning at any time and occur a window of risk. You do this because multiple low cost devices provide together are still not an expensive solution and lower the amount of downtime exponentially. At the opposite extreme is having something like a storage area network, where it's a single system built with N+1 redundancy, meaning all points of failure have been analysed, built and tested for so that any one component can fail without occuring an outage. It's very expensive and very time consuming process, they are literally the most infallible systems that people have devised (the test labs are themselves cost hundreds of millions) and in my years of designing data systems I have yet to see one ever go down. Our clustered systems have gone down and many times the redundant server or switch simply doesn't function because it wasn't in use and something is wrong or the failover doesn't go smoothly. It's never tested routinely because you know that even the test means risk and few can spare the downtime for such tests.

One of the reasons I got a multihull was to try to incorporate that N+1 resiliancy. It can't be perfect, but you can think out situation by situation, component by component, and plan for contingencies without having to go to the risk of abandoning ship.

It's not that I don't like the idea of a life raft, I want to find another solution for when a life raft would be needed because from my albeit very different experience in systems design points me to never rely on a system that isn't running, isn't instantly available, and whose contingencies are not routinely tested.

And there are the personal stories I read over and over where people go to use the life raft and it snaps away, flips or people get washed away trying to hold onto the life raft. Realistically when I think through the situation of using a life raft, I would have to walk down onto the transom of my boat in the open seas after a disaster, I can expect that I would have a broken limb and that I'm trying to pull someone unconsious, I'm trying to get them onboard to the life raft and I only have a few minutes to make the whole thing work. I'm just thinking that in that situation, I simply would never be physically capable of getting into the life raft. So I'm creating secure areas of positive floatation which can keep the boat afloat even in the event of amidships hull breach, I'm creating provisioned chambers in the forward sections for an inversion, I'm placing fire extinguishers in each hull and smoke alarms and fire access ports in the engine wells, it's a long list. If I had a monohull this wouldn't be possible and I would use a life raft, but in a multi I have more possibilities to create areas of sufficient positive floatation.

Just my opinion, and I greatly respect all others.
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Old 13-02-2008, 08:27   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog View Post
My own experience is in data center design and in those terms this is a difference between having multiple redundant nodes and N+1 resiliancy.
Having just lived through a data center failure (360 Main), I'd suggest that you be careful to distinguish hypothetical redundancy, with actual redundancy. One characteristic of highly redundant systems is that the backup parts are actually used operationally. There's a huge difference between having a diesel generator just in case and using one for 24 hours once a month as a matter of course.

Unfortunately, yachting is filled with gadgets which people carry "Just in case" but never actually use. Case in point: unless you actually practise launching and boarding your liferaft (say once a year when you repack it) I'm deeply sceptical that you'd be able to use it effectively. Ditto for sea anchors, drogues, bilge pumps, HF radios, inverted-but-floating hulls etc.

That being said, I spent two very happy years sailing a lightweight (ie theoretically unsinkable) cat across the Pacific without a liferaft. In that and other respects (not carrying insurance) I tried to make a conscious choice to spend money on things that I can actively use every day to stay safer, instead of on things which I might need. So, for example I didn't winge about the cost and weight of a _full_ set of charts and 4 or 5 (ie all available) cruising guides.

Agree with maxingout about the relative danger of electrical/fire. Electrical problems/fires seem very common (fx in SSCA logs) so I think that spending $5000 making sure that your electrical system is properly sized/fused/waterproof will make you a lot safer than investing the same money in a raft.

-Scott
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Old 13-02-2008, 09:40   #72
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Can an owner opt out of this list and decide for himself what he needs and prefers?..saving himself some money.
Yes owners can decide for them selves what they want on board for tools.
I just thought it wise to include a good set of tools and spare parts standard with each FastCat.

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Old 13-02-2008, 10:39   #73
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I brought one of our data centers through a complete emergency outage by planning out the redundant data center. It was almost funny with the first data centers failure, generator on the roof of the building, data center several floors up, connected to three power grids that had never had an outage in 75 years of operation. But the fuel for the data center was in the basement of the building, a large flood came in, flooded the fuel tanks and then everything goes dark 15 minute later when the batteries fail. We knew this was possible and I'd implimented the Continuity of Operations just 5 months prior, so we were up and running within 15 minutes. But a few months afterwards I was watching CNN when Hurricane Katrina was about to strike and saw people in New Orleans standing outside a huge public building mentioning how they wouldn't have to evacuate because they had redundant generators. I started laughing because behind the spokesman, on the ground, were the generators. And of course the generators were destoyed by the flood waters and everyone was waiting on top of a bridge to be evacuated by helicopter 12 hours later.

For my boat around 100 cu ft of permanent captive air is in the forward section providing 6300 lbs of lift, I plan on adding around 36 cu ft aft for another 2000 lbs of lift and carrying a float bag I can inflate inside the hull with prearranged attachment points down low on the inside of the boat should conditions be rough for another 3000 lbs of lift. If it's not rough conditions when I have a breach I would put the lift bag on very strong attachment points on the outside of the boat under the hull to lift the boat more efficiently. Between that, a high capacity emergency bilge pump with long leads and underwater epoxy and materials for filling in a breach onboard I hope to be fairly well prepared for a hull breach. But literally I will be walking from one end of the boat to the other saying, OK, how will that do if we were flipped, how will that do if it's immersed in water, how do I fix it, if a boat comes up to help where would they attach lines and how would it right and what would need to come online afterwards.... it's a long list.

Quote:
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Having just lived through a data center failure (360 Main), I'd suggest that you be careful to distinguish hypothetical redundancy, with actual redundancy. One characteristic of highly redundant systems is that the backup parts are actually used operationally. There's a huge difference between having a diesel generator just in case and using one for 24 hours once a month as a matter of course.

Unfortunately, yachting is filled with gadgets which people carry "Just in case" but never actually use. Case in point: unless you actually practise launching and boarding your liferaft (say once a year when you repack it) I'm deeply sceptical that you'd be able to use it effectively. Ditto for sea anchors, drogues, bilge pumps, HF radios, inverted-but-floating hulls etc.

That being said, I spent two very happy years sailing a lightweight (ie theoretically unsinkable) cat across the Pacific without a liferaft. In that and other respects (not carrying insurance) I tried to make a conscious choice to spend money on things that I can actively use every day to stay safer, instead of on things which I might need. So, for example I didn't winge about the cost and weight of a _full_ set of charts and 4 or 5 (ie all available) cruising guides.

Agree with maxingout about the relative danger of electrical/fire. Electrical problems/fires seem very common (fx in SSCA logs) so I think that spending $5000 making sure that your electrical system is properly sized/fused/waterproof will make you a lot safer than investing the same money in a raft.

-Scott
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Old 13-02-2008, 12:57   #74
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Hello Schoonerdog it all sounds great but where will you live on the boat if it is in its normal position ?
We both know as well as everybody in its right state of mind that it is not possible to plan for every catastrophy You have got a good Cat and I think you know how to sail.
That should be enough
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Old 13-02-2008, 14:13   #75
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If you're not going with a liferaft consider a dinghy that's designed for double duty (dinghy and liferaft). Portland Pudgy comes to mind; my neighbor has one and loves it.

The Pardie's also have a nice chapter in one of their books (Cost Conscious Cruiser, I think?) on building a double duty version yourself.

Beyond whether or not a boat is unsinkable, which is in and of itself quite a statement, the wisdom of Steven Callahan (author of Adrift, who spent several weeks in a life raft after his sailboat went down) and others who have been in his shoes suggests that the ability to have steerage and not just sit there waiting to die is crucial.

A turtled cat, as "unsinkable" as it may be, is certainly nothing that is going to allow you to get yourself 1, 10, 100, or 1000 miles to shore. A multipurpose liferaft / dinghy would however.

Trusting your sat phone, ssb, and all that jazz is a bad idea in my opinion. There a lot of stories about boats with all kinds of safety gear sailing by themselves, or being lost at sea. Seamanship is way more important than a gizmo. Use the gizmos for sure, but don't trust your life to them.
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