Circumnavigation w/o liferaft

[David M]

Originally Posted by BlueRhapCity

Would you consider going without a liferaft?

No. I value my life and will do everything I can to maximize my chances of keeping my life. To myself and my loved ones, I am worth more alive than the cost to purchase a $3000 life raft.

Living inside of a capsized boat up to my shoulders in cold water, with no survival suit, with no way of getting fresh oxygen is not my idea of survival. I hear hypothermia is a miserable way to die. Same with hypoxia, dehydration and poisoning from the ingestion of petroleum at the surface and of the breathing of petroleum fumes.

See how many elements have to be in order in order to not need a liferaft? ...what are the chances of that? I'm not willing to bet my life on perfect circumstances.

Using the same reasoning as some...it also makes no sense to wear seat belts either. I mean, what are the odds of needing a seatbelt on any given day?...pretty slim. So why worry about buckling up?

Seeing oneself as immortal or hoping this hypothetical capsize situation works out perfectly for survival is not such a good thing.

I remember reading about some saying the Titanic would never need lifeboats as well.

[fastcat435]

[quote=Nordic cat;133283]Now this is getting interesting! In another thread regarding the bi-rig cat, you suggest that I need to get the boat down to 4500 kgs. Yet your own fantastic lightweight boat now weighs 4800 kgs lightship.
So you suggest that a boat that is longer and wider, with more accomodation should weigh less??

Maybe you can tell us what one of your boats weighs ready for long distance cruising, including watermaker, and other stuff typically necessary for long term cruising, like a bimini, extra anchors and rodes, dinghy with outboard and other necessities?

Would you be so kind as to tell us how many fastcat 435's are actually sailing at the moment, and if you have an idea of what their actual cruising weights are?

Yes Alan , 4 of the 435 are sailing and the Cruising weights are
for the prototype 7900 kilo production number 1 5900 kilo
and the others are far below 5.5 tons and the last one the lowest.
All I noticed that on your fantastic fantasy design your hulls are very slim and for that reason you need to keep the weight down very low and my guess is around 4500 kilo and that is empty . It looks like your lenght to width ration is somewhere around
1: 16 but these are only drawings so maybe I am wrong
All these people that have never built a boat always know better I guess

Are you the one that thinks that one cubic meter has 10000 kilo,s of buoyancy ?

Regards

[fastcat435]

Hallo Dave

Only since the catana came out with the ocean class where liferafts included , before that they had the 471 and 472 series and only on the 472 these units where included.
I am not aware that any of the other series builders include liferafts standard
It is not on the standard equipment lists of
Lagoon
Fountaine Pajot
Roberson and Caine or any of the other hight volume builder that I know of.
On the Ocean class it is included as are many other items and for the price that only seems logical.
As I have told you before I find a catana a good Cat and if they had been accomodating to my wishes 7 years ago I would probably have sailed one now , I want some alterations done to the interior prior to delivery but they told me that get that done after finishing of the boat.
4 months later they went belly up.

Greetings

[Nordic cat]

Originally Posted by fastcat435

You do need to read better Alan

Our cats come standard equipped with a liferaft and a RIB However a RIB is not mandatory equipment for certification A or for any certification.
All that is certified is the actual boat, the crew is also not certified Our weights are for a complete boat including all the standard equipment. empty water and dieseltanks. This is called light ship conditions .
Medium ship conditions means tanks half full crew on board with provisions.
This means adding 250 kilo per person or 1000 kilo. For the standard FastCat 435
Light ship is 4800 kilo for the diesel version
Med ship is 5800 kilo
Full load is 6800 kilo
however we are allowed to load the boat up to 13255 kilo according to the CE A certificate and I have sailed the prototype loaded to that weight for 30.000 NM and she sailed well. In our manual we advise a max load of 11000 kilo to keep her light and lively. That gives us 6200 payload take of 1000 kilo for water and diesel and still 5200 left , that should be enough for any sailor even with dual watermakers airco heating genset etc

Can we take this statement to mean that your lightship statement includes a liferaft and a RIB, with outboard, all safety equipment as required by CE
So if we read your specification stating that there are 500 litres each of water and fuel tankage, you say that Medium ship is with half full tanks, no options.
250 litres of water id around 250 kg. 250 litres diesel is around 225 kg in total = 475 kg.
let's say 4 crew (not 8 as you specify) this gives 340 kg @ 85kg/person
In total now = 815 kg. Luggage, clothes, personal belongings, wet weather gear is easily 40 kg/person =160 kg

This leaves 25 kg for provisions for 4 crew for a long cruise- well I guess the final 25 kg is fishing equipment

May I suggest that if the 4800 kg lightship is in fact correct, then a more reasonable statement for cruising displacement would be the 6500 kg area, if not 7 tons.

Alan

[2Hulls]

Gideon - I understand very clearly everything you say. How do you reconcile this:

Originally Posted by fastcat435

I do not know of any cat that standard comes equipped with a life raft , not even the very expensive Catana it is all extra , and the same with a Rigid Inflatable all extra.

......with this a few minutes later, after being challenged:

Originally Posted by fastcat435

Only since the catana came out with the ocean class where liferafts included....

Why should I believe anything you say?

You may make a very nice boat. I don't know as I've never seen one. I'd like to see one sometime and I will seek out an opportunity to do so.

But you are not representing yourself as well as you could. You are not giving an impression of a classy yacht builder because you are careless with your facts and this, unfortunately, reflects poorly on your product despite how good it might be. Whether or not you like my boat is irrelevant.

I sincerely wish you success making FastCats. But until you better conduct yourself in your communications, I cannot recommend that serious sailors seeking serious voyaging catamarans look into your product. Believe me - I get asked a lot.

Dave

[fastcat435]

Hallo Dave
I hold the older Catana Equipment lists here and there it was not included
I noticed on the web that since they have changed to ocean class it now is included.
I still do not see a rigid inflatable with an outboard as standard or is that an ommision ?

Greetings

[2Hulls]

I am not aware that a RIB is included as standard equipment on Catana. But that was not the point.

So, do you or do you not acknowledge your carelessness with the facts?

In one minute you do not "know of any cat that standard comes equipped with a life raft" - especially Catana - yet you acknowledge a few minutes later that you know specifically that Catana Ocean Class does and your own boat does. Did you suddenly get more knowledgable when challenged?

Gideon, I am not trying to rub your nose in your carelessness. I do not care if your errors are honest mistakes or intentionally misleading statements. Just own up to your misstatements and move on. It's OK to admit being careless with a few facts. It's not OK to dig yourself into a deeper hole.

Dave

[David M]

I don't understand why a manufacturer would want to provide a liferaft as standard equipment? Shouldn't a liferaft a personal choice? I know when the time comes to pick one I will be the one who choses which raft I may one day have to climb aboard. ...and not what a manufacturer thinks is the best life raft for me.

Perhaps ordering boats has become too much like ordering options for a car? "This is what we offer... you can take it or leave it."

[Nordic cat]

Originally Posted by David M

I don't understand why a manufacturer would want to provide a liferaft as standard equipment? Shouldn't a liferaft a personal choice? I know when the time comes to pick one I will be the one who choses which raft I may one day have to climb aboard. ...and not what a manufacturer thinks is the best life raft for me.

Perhaps ordering boats has become too much like ordering options for a car? "This is what we offer... you can take it or leave it."

David,
In the EU, if you sell a boat designed and approved for sailing say >200 miles offshore, then it must be supplied with a liferaft that is approved for this. You can of course choose whatever liferaft you want, or choose not to have one, then the contract will have to state that the boat is supplied with equipment for e.g. less than 200 miles offshore.
So the approval for a certain Category includes a requirement of certain safety equipment to be carried on board.

So buying a boat is very much like buying a car, except with a boat, you can buy your own options, and as long as these fulfill the requirements, then your boat fulfills the requirements for a given distance from shore,
In some ways this is not all bad, it forces the first time seller to play on a level playing field regarding the safety equipment, so the ignorant buyer is protected a bit.

But still there are people making claims for displacement and not including the specified safety equipment that is mandatory for offshore sailing. So the old adage of "Buyer Beware" is still very true.

Regards

Alan

[David M]

Thanks Alan. Thats interesting. Its a good thing the buyer can still choose which equipment is to be installed aboard his boat, provided it meets the legal safety requirements for that country.

[Nordic cat]

Originally Posted by David M

Thanks Alan. Thats interesting. Its a good thing the buyer can still choose which equipment is to be installed aboard his boat, provided it meets the legal safety requirements for that country.

Hi,

Actually, the requirements cover all the EU member states plus several affiliated countries like Norway.

In fact given the special 2 year warranty period in the EU, I think many Americans would be better off buying a new boat in Europe than through a local dealer. Or at least getting the uS dealer to offer the same as required by EU law.

Regards

Alan

[Agility]

Originally Posted by David M

No. I value my life and will do everything I can to maximize my chances of keeping my life. To myself and my loved ones, I am worth more alive than the cost to purchase a $3000 life raft.

The premise of the question is not one of cost. It's one of keeping a light weight cat from being loaded down.

Since you seem to have captured a well shared point of view I'm curious about a few other life saving products.

Do you have a survival suit?

Do you carry a Sat Phone?

Do you have a EPIRB?

Do you have a redundant or personal Epirb?

Do you use a weather routing service?

Do you have a SSB?

Do you have a ditch bag ALWAYS ready to go ahead of time?

I must admit to not having everything in this list. I don't mean to be confrontational, I'm really just curious because everyone sees safety from a different viewpoint.

Personally, I wouldn't want to do a circumnavigation on a Cat under 50 feet. I also just paid a bunch of money to put kevlar in the bow in case we hit a container.

Tim

[Pelagic]

Good points Tim and there are probably a few more items that can be added to your list. However, in reality, if we all waited until every possible safety item was acquired and every component in perfect working order, we would never put to sea.

I do find it incredulous that (some of) the Cat owners and builders are convinced that their craft will be a viable platform in any type of disaster that could befall them at sea.

Sort of reminds me of that old Bill Cosby tale when Noah is complaining to God about all the effort needed to build and outfit the Ark. God replies in a booming voice….. “Noah! How long can you tread water?”

[Agility]

Builder are very familiar with the issue of safety.

While those most familiar with a problem are better suited to analyze it. In many cases those that are closest to the problem believe the data too much and can't see the forest form the trees.

After spending 6 months waking up every night to check anchor I believe that safety may actually be more an issue of sleeping well at night.

[Pelagic]

I think the whole issue of safety is one of training and practice on board your own craft. Until such times as you actually go through realistic exercises and use the safety equipment onboard, the crew will always be more nervous.

On every ocean passage we would have every crew member compete with each other to come up with the most devious “at sea” emergency they could think of. Once reviewed where I would add a few nasty wrinkles of my own, it was posted 5 minutes before sounding the General Alarm.

These exercises brought out all kinds of practical adjustments that needed fine tuning and tremendously increased the level of communication and morale on board. I think we all slept better after a drill.