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View Poll Results: Circumnavigating Cat without liferaft
Yes 21 17.36%
Depends on the Cat 20 16.53%
No way no how 80 66.12%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-02-2008, 05:02   #16
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I have installed U-bolts under the bridgedeck so that the life raft can be lashed down when inflated. It would provide suncover and a secure (and safer area) in which to remain on what would be the deck in the case of the unthinkable.

This is extremely important as the new 'deck' has no non-skid, no toe rail, no lifelines and would be curving down to the sea. It also provides a safer platform for a rescue, permits the liferaft to be readily deployed if necessary and ensures that you are able to remain on 'deck' to watch for ships/helicoptors/aircraft.

I for one also suspect that the interior of an overturned cat will become a nightmare of floating debris, fuel and chemicals without a flat sole. Yes, it will add weight - but a proper offshore liferaft for 6 will add less than 100 lbs. to the 20,000 lb. displacement of my cat when loaded for extended cruising. I'll put up with the loss in performance.

Brad

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Old 10-02-2008, 05:03   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troutbridge View Post
I read an interesting comment in a book by Gavin Lesuer. In a round Australia race, at night, going like a bat out of hell, they hit a sleeping whale. The whale was annoyed but their boat was reduced to very small pieces in very short order. They spent about three days in a liferaft. I won't go to sea without one. Individual choice of course.... there is a word used in the UK.....Pillock.....I think that applies to anyone who doesn't have one, and frankly that includes manufacturers who think that RIBs are just as good.
It is my feeling that a well constructed Rib is preferable any time over a Liferaft, at least you can sit in a normal fashion, steer the rib in a direction while sailing or rowing or even by motor given the fact that you are not to far offshore. Another advantage is that the rib is always ready while with a life raft you have to wait and see first if the unit will actually inflate ( and on many occasions that did not happen in the past , I believe there even was a test on Liferafts some time ago where 70 % of the units did not inflate what a safety? )

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Old 10-02-2008, 05:14   #18
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If the conditions were bad enough to capsize a large catamaran, I can't imagine coping in an RIB, no matter how well constructed. They lack ballast compartments, a boarding ladder/platform, a second tube should the lower one be damaged and a sun cover. Further, the shape of a liferaft is designed so that it is equally resistant to capsize no matter which 'side' faces the oncoming seas - it is a good thing therefore, that you can steer and row the RIB as you will be having to do that constantly.

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Old 10-02-2008, 05:54   #19
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Originally Posted by Troutbridge View Post
I read an interesting comment in a book by Gavin Lesuer. In a round Australia race, at night, going like a bat out of hell, they hit a sleeping whale. The whale was annoyed but their boat was reduced to very small pieces in very short order. They spent about three days in a liferaft. I won't go to sea without one. Individual choice of course.... there is a word used in the UK.....Pillock.....I think that applies to anyone who doesn't have one, and frankly that includes manufacturers who think that RIBs are just as good.
Hallo Troutbridge
I do not think a Rib is just as good , it is much better than a life raft.
There are a couple of reasons for me to think so.
1. it is always available and in good working order ( with a liferaft you still have to find out if it will actually inflate , many do not )
2. the space on board a good sized one is much better ( 13 Ft )
3. it is steerable and manuverable and in some cases even sailable.
4. it is more comfortable .
5. if equipped with oars / motor / sails you can get to where you want to go. The part with the motor only close to shore off course.
This is my choice and has been for many years.
If nothing else is available I will crawl in a life raft.

Gideon Goudsmit

p.s. Liferafts can also capsize
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:26   #20
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I find it hard to believe this conversation is even taking place.

IMHO I think it's foolhardy to voyage offshore without a liferaft. It's also foolhardy to voyage offshore without a tender AND to not be prepared for a capsize, fire, or any other calamity as best you can. We do not have the luxury of accurately predicting what our emergencies will be or where they will take place. Thus, redundancy and diversity of options is necessary to promote safety.

Any vessel constructed today that does not come equipped with a liferaft should not be advertised as an offshore cruising voyager nor certified as such. Period.

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Old 10-02-2008, 07:39   #21
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Gideon, with all due respect I think you need to experience 70 to 80 knot winds and +15m seas to appreciate the difference between a proper life raft (like the Givens) and your Rib. The Rib would probably be airborne and any people left inside… dead.

Life rafts are survival capsules with a heavy foot in the water called ballast. They are not meant to be comfortable. You are purposely packaged in tight so that you do not get thrown around and in 30 years at sea as a professional, I have never had one of my life rafts fail during testing. Perhaps professionals know their value and look after them.
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Old 10-02-2008, 10:33   #22
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The whale was annoyed but their boat was reduced to very small pieces in very short order. They spent about three days in a liferaft. I won't go to sea without one.
Does anyone know of any real world experiences where a crew abandoned a cat and survived using a life raft?
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Old 10-02-2008, 11:02   #23
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I find it hard to believe this conversation is even taking place.
Very smart people have differing opinions. That's the beauty of this forum. As with everything there are compromises. Chris White has a design for the forward compartment to be accessible from inside the hull. Climb in, jump into a hammock - safe dry etc.


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Old 10-02-2008, 11:53   #24
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My choice is to sail with both a life raft and a RIB but if I had to make a choice between these 2 I would choose the Rigid inflatable , Our Cats come equipped with both " standard " but the Rib stays the better platform to spend time on , I have sailed in winds up to 65 knots and without sail have been in wind conditions up to 90 knots and that does not change my mind.
I do not know of any cat that standard comes equipped with a life raft , not even the very expensive Catana it is all extra , and the same with a Rigid Inflatable all extra.
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:45   #25
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Chris White has a design for the forward compartment to be accessible from inside the hull. Climb in, jump into a hammock - safe dry etc.


Hadn't thought about it like this - bloody good idea if you can incorporate it into your boat's design!
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:56   #26
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Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
My choice is to sail with both a life raft and a RIB but if I had to make a choice between these 2 I would choose the Rigid inflatable , Our Cats come equipped with both " standard " but the Rib stays the better platform to spend time on , I have sailed in winds up to 65 knots and without sail have been in wind conditions up to 90 knots and that does not change my mind.
I do not know of any cat that standard comes equipped with a life raft , not even the very expensive Catana it is all extra , and the same with a Rigid Inflatable all extra.

Then how come you have Category A approval for RCD/CE? Doesn't this imply that there must be a liferaft on board for the number of people your approval states, and the official builders plate has to state this? I.e Category A - 6 people, Cat. B. 10 people etc....

Does this mean that you weight claims for the boat,do not include the mandatory safety equipment for the intended use of the boat? Interesting...

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Old 10-02-2008, 13:14   #27
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You do need to read better Alan

Our cats come standard equipped with a liferaft and a RIB However a RIB is not mandatory equipment for certification A or for any certification.
All that is certified is the actual boat, the crew is also not certified Our weights are for a complete boat including all the standard equipment. empty water and dieseltanks. This is called light ship conditions .
Medium ship conditions means tanks half full crew on board with provisions.
This means adding 250 kilo per person or 1000 kilo. For the standard FastCat 435
Light ship is 4800 kilo for the diesel version
Med ship is 5800 kilo
Full load is 6800 kilo
however we are allowed to load the boat up to 13255 kilo according to the CE A certificate and I have sailed the prototype loaded to that weight for 30.000 NM and she sailed well. In our manual we advise a max load of 11000 kilo to keep her light and lively. That gives us 6200 payload take of 1000 kilo for water and diesel and still 5200 left , that should be enough for any sailor even with dual watermakers airco heating genset etc
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Old 10-02-2008, 13:34   #28
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I do not know of any cat that standard comes equipped with a life raft , not even the very expensive Catana it is all extra , and the same with a Rigid Inflatable all extra.
Gideon - once again you're careless with your facts. Which is it - do you just not know? How can a yacht builder not know his competition? - or are you intentionally trying to zoom us?

Catanas do indeed come with a liferaft as standard.

You don't know of any cat that comes equipped with a life raft, but in your very next posting you say:

Quote:
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Our cats come standard equipped with a liferaft and a RIB However a RIB is not mandatory equipment for certification A or for any certification.
Let me give you some free business advice. Do not be careless with your facts. It's OK to say, "I don't know." It's better to not say anything if you're not sure of what you're talking about. DO NOT make up chit thinking your listeners will not know.

Dave
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Old 10-02-2008, 14:32   #29
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Let me give you some free business advice. Do not be careless with your facts. It's OK to say, "I don't know." It's better to not say anything if you're not sure of what you're talking about. DO NOT make up chit thinking your listeners will not know.

Dave
I'll second that!

"You can fool some people most of the time but not all people all the time!"

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Old 10-02-2008, 14:44   #30
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You do need to read better Alan

Our cats come standard equipped with a liferaft and a RIB However a RIB is not mandatory equipment for certification A or for any certification.
All that is certified is the actual boat, the crew is also not certified Our weights are for a complete boat including all the standard equipment. empty water and dieseltanks. This is called light ship conditions .
Medium ship conditions means tanks half full crew on board with provisions.
This means adding 250 kilo per person or 1000 kilo. For the standard FastCat 435
Light ship is 4800 kilo for the diesel version
Med ship is 5800 kilo
Full load is 6800 kilo
however we are allowed to load the boat up to 13255 kilo according to the CE A certificate and I have sailed the prototype loaded to that weight for 30.000 NM and she sailed well. In our manual we advise a max load of 11000 kilo to keep her light and lively. That gives us 6200 payload take of 1000 kilo for water and diesel and still 5200 left , that should be enough for any sailor even with dual watermakers airco heating genset etc

Now this is getting interesting! In another thread regarding the bi-rig cat, you suggest that I need to get the boat down to 4500 kgs. Yet your own fantastic lightweight boat now weighs 4800 kgs lightship.
So you suggest that a boat that is longer and wider, with more accomodation should weigh less??

Maybe you can tell us what one of your boats weighs ready for long distance cruising, including watermaker, and other stuff typically necessary for long term cruising, like a bimini, extra anchors and rodes, dinghy with outboard and other necessities?

Would you be so kind as to tell us how many fastcat 435's are actually sailing at the moment, and if you have an idea of what their actual cruising weights are?

Regards

Alan
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