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View Poll Results: Circumnavigating Cat without liferaft
Yes 21 17.36%
Depends on the Cat 20 16.53%
No way no how 80 66.12%
Voters: 121. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-04-2008, 23:57   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
Pelagic is absolutely right.

Even if your capsized boat floats like a capsized foam cored Boston Whaler.....what the hell good is it upside down? It cant get you out of the water. It cant collect fresh water. It cant provide you food. It cant get you out of the weather.

I still don't see how people are better off clinging to the side of a boat in the water than in a raft, out of the water, out of the sun, out of the cold, hydrated and not hungry. By hanging off the side of your capsized boat you may as well be hanging onto a floating log.

Besides....what is better? One choice or two choices when it comes to your survival?
3 choices are better than 2 so have a good rigid inflatable , a life raft and the bridgdeck to sit on , the most stable location on a cat turned upside down, another reason to have safety lines on the inner sides of the hulls, you can strap yourself or other things to these safety lines and even make a tent over the bridgedeck.
Gideon
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Old 13-04-2008, 00:18   #182
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"Good Builders are very proactive in making the boat safer and safer" I don't agree, at all. I can't think of any stock mid-sized and mid-priced cruising boats where the builder has taken any precautions against fire, nor provided floatation designed to attain a calculated floatation goal. A good builder will size the wiring correctly and provide adequate fusing, but that's about it for fire safety. In a multi-hull that doesn't have a hatch designed for upside down access, provide a keyhole saw where you can get at it with the boat topsy turvy, and a hand pump, so you can pump out a flooded compartment.
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Old 13-04-2008, 00:58   #183
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
"Good Builders are very proactive in making the boat safer and safer" I don't agree, at all. I can't think of any stock mid-sized and mid-priced cruising boats where the builder has taken any precautions against fire, nor provided floatation designed to attain a calculated floatation goal. A good builder will size the wiring correctly and provide adequate fusing, but that's about it for fire safety. In a multi-hull that doesn't have a hatch designed for upside down access, provide a keyhole saw where you can get at it with the boat topsy turvy, and a hand pump, so you can pump out a flooded compartment.
I think you have not only a big cat in planning but a big mouth to match
Since you have not build one boat in your life you have got no idea.
we have 5 automatic fire extinghuisers on board , use paint that is fire retardant, have hatches that can be entered when the boat is upside down, have 200 % floatation build in and have taken every possible measure to increase safety and at the same time have kept the boat as affordable as possible.
To ad to that there is no vinylester resin in existence that will not burn.
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Old 13-04-2008, 01:40   #184
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When your life's upside down

Quote

"You don't cling to the outside though. You go inside. Where you are out of the weather, and have access to your stores, water, clothing and so on.

Read the story of the "Rose Noelle" "........ from 44c

Rose Noelle's owner was very experienced and resourceful. Characteristics one gains over time, 44c.
Prior Preparation is the key. Ask Tusks owners about their capsize. The surge through the boat stripped the inside of their cat of most useful things very quickly. How many water tanks are useful upside down?. Capsizes normally occur in pretty shitty conditions making survival preparations difficult in an upside down dark wet boat. Surely the missus and the little kiddies lives are worth the cost of raft and a few ration packs.
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Old 13-04-2008, 02:15   #185
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Well, let's see just who has a 'big mouth."

I said, "I can't think of any stock mid-sized and mid-priced cruising boats...." So, you consider FastCats 'mid-priced?" Let's hear it folks, is $800,000 mid-priced? For a 41'3" catamaran?

Gideon, I think you should learn to take a deep breath and go do something else for a while when you feel one of these tantrums coming on. Then you should reread whatever it was that set you off when you feel calmer, before you post.

(Sail) Multi-hull

The above link gives one some idea of what midsized, midpriced catamarans go for. And Gideon, your 41' boat is a bit small to call 'midsized,' IMHO. I would say midsized is 44' or 45', the size that has 4 private cabins and 2 heads when configured as a charter boat.
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Old 13-04-2008, 02:18   #186
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Old 13-04-2008, 02:24   #187
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Gideon is one whom I’d describe as a good builder and an experienced sailor. He knows that the more options you have, the better, with the life raft ALWAYS being the last resort.

Worst case scenario for any sailor’s survival is something like riding out a Force 10 Storm at night, zero visibility, heavy rain and spume, when you are run over by a lightly laden Super Containership doing 25 knots and surfing ahead of the seas.

Don’t forget to also renew your hydrostatic release on that life raft!......
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Old 13-04-2008, 02:54   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
I said, "I can't think of any stock mid-sized and mid-priced cruising boats...." So, you consider FastCats 'mid-priced?" Let's hear it folks, is $800,000 mid-priced? For a 41'3" catamaran?

Gideon, I think you should learn to take a deep breath and go do something else for a while when you feel one of these tantrums coming on. Then you should reread whatever it was that set you off when you feel calmer, before you post.

(Sail) Multi-hull

The above link gives one some idea of what midsized, midpriced catamarans go for. And Gideon, your 41' boat is a bit small to call 'midsized,' IMHO. I would say midsized is 44' or 45', the size that has 4 private cabins and 2 heads when configured as a charter boat.
Hallo Big Cat

Our FastCat 455 is in fact 46 ft 9 inches so not 41 ft
The 41 ft cat is a new design coming to the market next year and will have the identical safety features as the biger sisters , the 455 and 555
.
If I look at smaller sized monohulls like the etap line from belgium unsinkable, 200 % buoyancy and good in every safety aspect possible for yachts costing 150.000 usd and up safety is a big issue with yacht builders.
greetings
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Old 13-04-2008, 10:32   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
"Good Builders are very proactive in making the boat safer and safer" I don't agree, at all. I can't think of any stock mid-sized and mid-priced cruising boats where the builder has taken any precautions against fire, nor provided floatation designed to attain a calculated floatation goal. A good builder will size the wiring correctly and provide adequate fusing, but that's about it for fire safety. In a multi-hull that doesn't have a hatch designed for upside down access, provide a keyhole saw where you can get at it with the boat topsy turvy, and a hand pump, so you can pump out a flooded compartment.

I suggest you take a good look at the CE requirements for Cat.A (>200 miles offshore) for some inspiration regarding some of the safety aspects you claim that builders don't bother with. Several of these issues are adressed in the requirements, and most of the requirements are now ratified as ISO standards. I agree that not all issues are adressed there, but if buyers don't ask for it, they don't get it unless some legislation requires it.

Fire is an hazard, primarily from 3 sources: Diesel and engine room area, electrics(including a lightning strike) and gas if carried. (OK the galley also).
Having a sensible set of firefighting tools, i.e both CO2 and powder extinguishers, as well as a metod of pumping water at a decent pressure to enable cooling will be the first step. Second step is to know when to use what, and how, so some training in fire fighting is reccomended.
Carry a fire blanket for the galley as well, and learn how to use it!! You can put out a 1m2 fire with it if you know how.

In my opinion, water and foam extinguishers are a waste of time.

Limit use of hoses for gas and fuel, and ensure shut-off at the source. Install alarms in the engine rooms and smoke detectors in the habitable parts of the boat.

I will not bother with fire proof epoxy, but am considering use of a flame retardant coating in the engine rooms.

Regards

Alan
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Old 13-04-2008, 15:18   #190
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Fire retardant paint

"I will not bother with fire proof epoxy, but am considering use of a flame retardant coating in the engine rooms."

I want to go the extra mile, and plan on using fire retardant paint in the engine rooms despite using resin that is less than one fourth as flammable than red oak. I encourage everyone to do this, which is why I posted a link to a source for it, and also posted the price. I think it's great that Gideon uses a fireproof paint in the engine rooms of his boats. I have always maintained that he is the most conscientious of boat builders.
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Old 13-04-2008, 15:28   #191
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"I will not bother with fire proof epoxy, but am considering use of a flame retardant coating in the engine rooms."

I want to go the extra mile, and plan on using fire retardant paint in the engine rooms despite using resin that is less than one fourth as flammable than red oak. I encourage everyone to do this, which is why I posted a link to a source for it, and also posted the price. I think it's great that Gideon uses a fireproof paint in the engine rooms of his boats. I have always maintained that he is the most conscientious of boat builders.
Just to make one thing clear Tim fire proof resins do not exist fire retardent do , the difference is the time for the resin to catch fire
We have done test with the epoxy we use and it took over 30 seconds for it to catch fire and once that has happened run becasue it goes fast
We tried it out on a panle of 4 ft long and 1 ft wide and lit it one one side
after it caught fire on that side it took less than one minute for the whole part to be on fire.
Even with the fire retardant paint on top it is just another delay of the resin catching fire. The baslat we now use with the infusion will delay it even more since baslat does not burn at all and creates a heat barrier, foam and bals are fantastic to make a fire .

Greetings
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Old 13-04-2008, 16:04   #192
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"fire proof resins do not exist fire retardent (sic) do" I already posted about this.

"the difference is the time for the resin to catch fire" No, the test in use in the US is a flame spread test, not a time to ignition test, nor a burn-through test. Frankly, you are making epoxy sound scarier that I thought. Fire retardant resin is "Class A" under the US standard, which means that flames spread (along the surface) at 1/4 (or less) the speed that they would in Red Oak. The AOC resin I posted has a flame spread rating of 15, meaning that flame takes almost 7 times longer to spread along its surface as it along the surface of Red Oak--this makes it the equivalent of gypsum wall board for spreading along the surface (not through.)

It would be interesting to see specifications for your flame retardant paint, as well. Your test makes me wonder if it is up to the standard of the product I posted, which is also a US made product.

See:
Flame-Spread Ratings
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Old 13-04-2008, 16:16   #193
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"The surge through the boat stripped the inside of their cat of most useful things very quickly." IMHO, one more reason for preferring the type of layout with many different waterproof compartments accessed through the deck, rather than through one passageway through the hull. BigCat 65 has 10 waterproof compartments accessed this way. Terrific privacy for the cabins is a beneficial side effect of this plan, as well as it being a benefit if you hit a rock and coral head hard enough to penetrate the hull. It should also retard flame spreading hugely, should you have a fire aboard.

"How many water tanks are useful upside down?" Take your water tank air vents up to deck level, make a "u" turn, and have them end down up down by the cabin sole. Have your fuel vents terminate outside the cabin, with a flame spread screen over them. You can buy fittings with flame spread screens at any large chandlery, or online.
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Old 13-04-2008, 17:11   #194
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Big brother's watching ...
Better plug that thing into your computer--it's pretty cool, actually. Does it reboot the computer? Unfortunately, when windows is really screwed up, you have to pull the power plug, and a UBS device won't do a darned thing. I'm writing to you from Micro$oft land, but we call it 'the evil empire' here. Buggy software plus ruthless business practices earn them no friends.............
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Old 14-04-2008, 05:34   #195
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back to the thread for a moment

For those not wanting a life raft what about a Steve Callahan designed clam. EQUIPPED TO SURVIVE (tm) - Steven Callahan Bio

I suspect 76 days in a life raft gives one time to think about such things.

Whilst on the subject of Steve Callahan ,he has also done many miles on Russ Browns Jzerro and has continued a mudslinging match with our own Mr Denny at Reply to Rob Denney's critiques of Russell Brown Proa by Steven Callahan
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