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View Poll Results: Circumnavigating Cat without liferaft
Yes 21 17.36%
Depends on the Cat 20 16.53%
No way no how 80 66.12%
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Old 18-03-2008, 15:41   #166
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What resin? Fire retardant resin? I am working on a project with Vinylester resin from Reichhold, Dion 9300-10. You add antimony dioxide or antimony trioxide to the resin if you want to gain maximum fire retardancy. www.reichhold.com/docs/bulletin/DION%20FR%209300.pdf -
Yes Big Cat,t hat is what I was asking. Thank You.
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Old 07-04-2008, 13:28   #167
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My vinylester and Gideon's epoxy are roughly equivalent in strength and elasticity: See
If I compromise will i ever know?!
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Old 08-04-2008, 14:55   #168
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Are you going to tack this on the end of every single thread?
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Old 08-04-2008, 17:43   #169
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He already has.
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Old 08-04-2008, 23:16   #170
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As above. I'd go without a raft, as long as I was sure the boat had plenty of bouyancy. (ie unsinkable) If the boat was burning then I'd have to use the dinghy. IMHO the odds of the boat catching fire during a storm at sea are low.

Uh, no life raft?...Unsinkable? Yeah the Titanic was unsinkable too. Remember Murphy was an optiminst.
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Old 09-04-2008, 00:57   #171
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Uh, no life raft?...Unsinkable? Yeah the Titanic was unsinkable too. Remember Murphy was an optiminst.
For pity's sake...
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Old 09-04-2008, 13:45   #172
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"If the boat was burning then I'd have to use the dinghy. IMHO the odds of the boat catching fire during a storm at sea are low." I guess you mean, you aren't worried about using your dingy if your boat is burning, because there probably won't be a storm that would make your dingy untenable. If someone comes and rescues you, fine-but if you bob around for a while, a storm may come along eventually. Better fireproof that boat as much as possible!

" Uh, no life raft?...Unsinkable? Yeah the Titanic was unsinkable too. Remember Murphy was an optiminst." The Titanic didn't have closed-cell polyurethane foam. It is possible to make a boat that really is unsinkable now, and if you don't use wood on your boat, and make it of fiberglass with flame-retardant resin, you can make it so that it is pretty hard to burn, too. There is also fire retardant paint, as discussed earlier. Technology marches on, you know-we have learned a thing or two since 1912! I would much rather be on an unsinkable fire-retardant boat than a jumped-up beach toy that may or may not inflate.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:05   #173
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"Hubris, the ancient Greek literary conscept, wherein the hero of the story, thinking he is undefeatable/unsinkable and or equal to the Gods was promptly shown the truth."
My only intention was to stress safety and emergency preparedness are the only true guarentees of unsinkable/fire proof.
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Old 12-04-2008, 11:55   #174
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Thanks everyone for all the insightful discussion about safety. I've learned a lot. Probably one of the biggest IMHO is that a liferaft alone doesn't even scratch the surface for a safety program. I think many people, including myself, felt that by having a liferaft on board we were prepared for the worst. I have come to the conclusion that they are many many things I will do that are more important than a liferaft and I will do my best to make sure I optimize across the whole spectrum of safety measure.

It's always been my belief but now it's clear that the ONLY way I'd leave the boat is stepping up. It's now clear to me that I would get in the dink if at all possible before I attempted to enter a liferaft. I will definitely keep a EPIRB and Sat Phone and VHF radio. Yes I plan to buy a liferaft, although I will probably not get a big oversized one like many recommend.

I also respect those that choose not to get a liferaft. If I were by myself I think I wouldn't carry one.
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:36   #175
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'Fire-retardant,' If you please!

"My only intention was to stress safety and emergency preparedness are the only true guarentees (sic) of unsinkable/fire proof." You will note that I use the word 'fire retardant' and not 'fire proof.' I do this deliberately. There is more about this in the 'composites' thread.

In multi-hulls, there is a tendency to make bulkheads and furnishings out of cored laminates, which makes fireproofing them with fire-retardant resins more likely to help in a fire than would be the case in a heavier boat with a lot of wood in its interior. All of the interior of my old voyaging monohull, the Batwing, was made of wood and plywood.
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Old 12-04-2008, 21:19   #176
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All this discussion on building techniques to make a yacht safer is great but it fails to address the key issue that:….. in an extreme situation when you have no other choice but to abandon your vessel….A working life raft….. IS YOUR LAST RESORT!

Any claims that this could never happen are just marketing hype and are in my opinion immoral or just plain stupid!

Good Builders are very proactive in making the boat safer and safer but don’t suggest that it is invincible in all situations and still allow for a life raft.

Just as in preparing your yacht, if you choose not to be proactive in protecting, servicing and personally inspecting your life raft, then its failure is yours!
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Old 12-04-2008, 21:38   #177
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Pelagic is absolutely right.

Even if your capsized boat floats like a capsized foam cored Boston Whaler.....what the hell good is it upside down? It cant get you out of the water. It cant collect fresh water. It cant provide you food. It cant get you out of the weather.

I still don't see how people are better off clinging to the side of a boat in the water than in a raft, out of the water, out of the sun, out of the cold, hydrated and not hungry. By hanging off the side of your capsized boat you may as well be hanging onto a floating log.

Besides....what is better? One choice or two choices when it comes to your survival?
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Old 12-04-2008, 21:48   #178
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Pelagic is absolutely right.

Even if your capsized boat floats like a capsized foam cored Boston Whaler.....what the hell good is it upside down? It cant get you out of the water. It cant collect fresh water. It cant provide you food. It cant get you out of the weather.

I still don't see how people are better off clinging to the side of a boat in the water than in a raft, out of the water, out of the sun, out of the cold, hydrated and not hungry. By hanging off the side of your capsized boat you may as well be hanging onto a floating log.

Besides....what is better? One choice or two choices when it comes to your survival?
I don't understand your argument and we're not talking about Boston Whalers. On my boat, upside down, I would be able to hang out in a hammock and still have ships stores and be able to stay dry.

In most/all cases it's better to stay in the boat, read Fastnet Force 10. In a highly buoyant cat I really can't think of an instance where I would want to abandon ship if it was floating.
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Old 12-04-2008, 21:58   #179
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I don't understand your argument and we're not talking about Boston Whalers. On my boat, upside down, I would be able to hang out in a hammock and still have ships stores and be able to stay dry.

In most/all cases it's better to stay in the boat, read Fastnet Force 10. In a highly buoyant cat I really can't think of an instance where I would want to abandon ship if it was floating.
How do you figure with two hulls sticking out of the water? A hammock stretched between the two hulls? Are you going to dive under water to tie the two hammock ropes to the shrouds? I am not being cynical, I am just trying to imagine this.
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Old 12-04-2008, 22:40   #180
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Pelagic is absolutely right.

Even if your capsized boat floats like a capsized foam cored Boston Whaler.....what the hell good is it upside down? It cant get you out of the water. It cant collect fresh water. It cant provide you food. It cant get you out of the weather.

I still don't see how people are better off clinging to the side of a boat in the water than in a raft, out of the water, out of the sun, out of the cold, hydrated and not hungry. By hanging off the side of your capsized boat you may as well be hanging onto a floating log.

Besides....what is better? One choice or two choices when it comes to your survival?
You don't cling to the outside though. You go inside. Where you are out of the weather, and have access to your stores, water, clothing and so on.

Read the story of the "Rose Noelle" .(I need to re-read it too, it's been years)

IIRC 3 men survived in an upside-down tri for several months. When they finally were found they were in such good condition people initially thought their story was a hoax!

These days with EPIRBS hopefully nobody would have to wait that long for rescue.

The argument is, you are better off INSIDE an upturned, but floating multihull, (or monohull for that matter -re Autissier & Bullimore) than you would be in a liferaft. Especially in violent weather. With some proviso's - the boat needs to have sufficient bouyancy to float high enough for a start.

The thing to note is that it has actually been done - several times.

Certainly having a liferaft gives you another option - but one you shouldn't have to take as long as the "big boat" is still floating.
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