Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 05-01-2016, 17:39   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 754
Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

There is a wonderful boat for sale in Florida that I have been sniffing around for sometime. She is 55 foot trimaran designed by Chris White. She is a twin masted and unstayed rig. A gorgeous boat and very well maintained by her skipper.

I posed the question to him of how close to the wind she can point. His reply was approximately 40 degrees +/- depending on conditions.

So here is my question for other multihullers: Is that due to her not using headsails? Or is it due to the stay less masts...which is why she has no headsails?

This boat is quite a bargain for her size. I can't get my mind around how you would attempt to sail upwind with that apparent angle lost due to pointing ability. I can only think it is time to turn on the iron jenny. My experience has been on the F27 and F31's. But they are conventional rigged and point very well.

Please educate me. I have zero knowledge about stayless masts. Is that pretty much the way it is for monos like Nosuch and Pearsons? I await your responses.
__________________

__________________
alansmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 18:05   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,456
Images: 69
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Our old mono pointed at 45 AWA. The 80hp diesel was the better option.
__________________

__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 18:12   #3
Registered User
 
Training Wheels's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Left coast.
Posts: 673
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Give Chris White a call or email and ask him. He's a great guy.
__________________
Training Wheels is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 18:14   #4
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,084
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Have you spoken with Chris White, given he designed built and owned the boat for many years?
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 18:15   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 754
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Looks like I answered my own question with a simple question on Google of how close can a boat sail to the wind. Here is a responsible and seemingly accurate answer...forgive me my laziness before I exercised due diligence. But still tell me your experience on cats, performance monos, and tris.






"There's the question of how close you can sail to the true wind, and then there's the question of how close you want to sail to the true wind. The two are quite different! There's a fundamental reason why boats go upwind at near 45 degrees, and that's to maximize their velocity-made-good to windward.

A moderate performance boat like the AC class will point well above 45 degrees because while they can sail to a comparatively small apparent wind angle, they can't actually go fast and so must opt for a high angle.

A high performance craft will sail at comparable apparent wind angles, but will opt for a lower course. The extra speed will more than make up for the extra distance sailed. So you won't actually see these boats tacking through less than 90 degrees.

Theory says if the boat has very high performance, such that the speed can increase freely to the point that the boat sails at the same apparent wind angle all the time, the optimum course to windward is 45 degrees plus half the apparent wind angle. Very few craft can come close to this ideal and must sail higher and slower. But you can see that 45 degrees is a fundamental number and not a coincidence."
__________________
__________________
alansmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 18:24   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 6,713
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

40 true or apparent? If it can point to 40 true, that's bl**dy good!. If it points to 40 apparent, that's on a par with many cruising multihulls.
__________________
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-01-2016, 20:38   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Southern Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Norseman 430, Jabberwock
Posts: 691
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
40 true or apparent? .
This is the key question! Makes a big difference.
__________________
ggray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 00:45   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 38
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

I wouldn't worry about Carisa's sailing abilities mate.
Her predecessor, Juniper, was picked by Henk de Velde for his 6th solo circumnavigation.
I don't think he would have bought a boat with pointing issues. As posted above, 40-45 is usually the most effective angle.
Carisa's interior is really a work of art.
If you are able to buy (and maintain) this boat, go for it!
__________________
Teleman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 08:22   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Winters cruising; summers Chesapeake Bay
Boat: Catana 471
Posts: 1,239
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
40 true or apparent?
Of course that's the key question.

And - one more time - it's not pointing angle that's the real metric. It's VMG. Guess what true wind angle the AC 72 foiling cats "point" at? About 50*. So they tack through about 100*. About the same as a lot of cruising boats.

Dave
__________________
2Hulls is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 09:17   #10
Registered User
 
Highland Fling's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Sunny Scotland but sail in the Caribbean
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 461
Posts: 374
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

well she is sold now...did you buy her are you the new owner?
__________________
Now with 600AH of LIFEPO4
kindest regards
David
Highland Fling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 10:58   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 754
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Juniper II is not sold yet. I just spoke with the broker last night and been in communication with the owner almost daily for the last week. You are probably thinking of Chris Whites Juniper.

Thanks guys for all of the comments. It is funny that I forgot about the Dutchman who sailed it many a mile. His story is fun to read and watched his interviews on Youtube. First ran into him on Jim Brown's Outrig.org platform.

Don't know why I was thinking that was not an optimal angle. Been too long on the land.
__________________
alansmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 11:42   #12
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,957
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Tris generally point quite well. Given her Chris White pedigree I would expect that to be the case.
__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 12:54   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 754
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Long been a fan of Chris White designs. Love his Atlantic Cat series. Makes my knees go weak and breathe funny. But 1.2 million for a new cat is never going to happen without a divorce...smile
__________________
alansmith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 13:05   #14
Registered User
 
Training Wheels's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Left coast.
Posts: 673
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Absolutely love our CW tri.
__________________
Training Wheels is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2016, 13:18   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,957
Re: Chris White Juniper II pointing ability

Quote:
Originally Posted by Training Wheels View Post
Absolutely love our CW tri.
Close hauled AWA?
__________________

__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
S2 9.2A Poor Pointing Ability ?? Maisso Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 36 21-09-2016 22:00
How does in-mast roller furling affect pointing ability? sneuman Monohull Sailboats 52 16-09-2014 17:00
Pointing ability in poor weather? stevensuf General Sailing Forum 32 10-04-2012 10:20
Anyone Sailing the Chris White Design Cats videorov Multihull Sailboats 25 29-01-2012 21:58
pointing ability Red Horse Multihull Sailboats 51 10-10-2008 02:23



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:12.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.