Choosing a cat

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by Stumble

I would ask both designers what happens when the boat is overloaded. Say in 1,000lb increments. Even with very tight weight discipline it's hard to keep a cruising boat as light as a race boat, and while they may have the same nominal load carrying capacity the race boat will probably respond to excess weight much faster.

There is also a real question, do you really want to drive a boat hard enough to hit 20kn or more? At these speeds all boats are riding the edge, small mistakes can result in lots of gear breakages.

Second question. What is the race boat designers feeling of running off in big breeze without a spinnaker? On smaller beach cats the greatest risk is of pitch poling from the main driving the bows into the water. A spinnaker reduce this chance by adding a verticle lifting motion to the bows. It very well may be that in big breeze off the wind you have no choice but to fly a spinnaker to keep the bows up.

Good call on doing a weight table. I normally knock up weight & balance tables when I go flying, so something similar for this boat can't hurt.

20kts? I like the fact the boat can do it if we want, but will be just as happy in the teens. That's still double the speed we used to achieve, and means rather than waiting for a 5 day window, we only need 2.5 - 3 days - a much more realistic possibility.

As for the spinnaker, we plan on running an assy - Boat #2 already has the setup for it (just needs a new bowsprit) plus this particular boat is setup as a cutter (as standard) precisely for heavy wind conditions.

Nathan

[ausnp84]

True, true.

Still, parts break and having just gone through the nightmare of getting a replacement ally mast from the UK to Portugal, I guess we're looking for the max performance, whilst keeping the boat as simple as possible.

That does throw up stainless vs synthetic rigging tho. Is the weight saving worth the extra cost and chafe concerns? I like the fact it's easy to take a spare synthetic stay or two in a small bag (as opposed to having a coil of wire laying about).

N

[Seaslug Caravan]

A couple of thoughts.

Rotating rigs are a pain on offshore cruisers. Generally The sections are larger so higher windage aloft, greater weight from the greater surface area ( the reality is that most carbon cruising rigs are no lighter than the aluminium sections they replace), and the sloping twisting jerking motion in light sloppy weather must be seen to be appreciated.

In Australia most of the rotating masted cruising cats eventually get the mast mechanically fastened fore and aft. Locking it with a piece of sting just isn't a solution long term. Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

In-fact we are currently sharing a marina with two composite deep chord wing masted cats
that have had this modification. Its fun watching them in the gusts.

With the risk of repeating myself. cruising speed over long periods is primarily a result of waterline length and not things like synthetic rigging, mini keels, or water maker installations.

Check out the ARC results.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

That does throw up stainless vs synthetic rigging tho. Is the weight saving worth the extra cost and chafe concerns? I like the fact it's easy to take a spare synthetic stay or two in a small bag (as opposed to having a coil of wire laying about).

N

Is synthetic rigging more expensive? I was under the impression it was cheaper than stainless.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Is synthetic rigging more expensive? I was under the impression it was cheaper than stainless.

£2k to re-rig in stainless, £6-£7k in synthetic....

10 years for stainless, 5-8 years for synthetic.

I think there's 6 stays on Boat #2... Would using stainless really translate into that much more weight?

N

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

£2k to re-rig in stainless, £6-£7k in synthetic....

10 years for stainless, 5-8 years for synthetic.

I think there's 6 stays on Boat #2... Would using stainless really translate into that much more weight?

N

On those numbers it's hard to justify synthetic on a cruising boat.

[yeloya]

I just wonder how many of those who commented negatively on rotating carbon mast have ever sailed such a boat ?


I have sailed an Outremer 51 for a while and I haven't seen any of the negatives that were mentioned. There is only one; extra 70-100.000 Euros to be paid..


Yeloya

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

In-fact we are currently sharing a marina with two composite deep chord wing masted cats
that have had this modification. Its fun watching them in the gusts..

Which marina, which boats

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Factor

Which marina, which boats

LOL! Probably the same place and the same boats he saw me motoring past. Dream Island marina, the boats are fantasy land and imagination....

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

On those numbers it's hard to justify synthetic on a cruising boat.

Ok, so Boat #2 is sounding like the right candidate. A few compromises with headroom, age and styling, but less complexity and more cruiser friendly.

For long distance short-handed sailing, it doesn't sound like we'll lose that many miles on Boat #1 either.

N

[44'cruisingcat]

Be nice if you could post links to the boats in question....

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by ausnp84

£2k to re-rig in stainless, £6-£7k in synthetic....

10 years for stainless, 5-8 years for synthetic.

I think there's 6 stays on Boat #2... Would using stainless really translate into that much more weight?

N

What synthetic are you using? I reriged our trimaran two years ago for about 75% the cost of stainless. Including new end fittings. The line will have to be replaced at 5 years, but the fittings should last for ever (anodized aluminium). I haven't priced large HSR dyneema since then, but my A-Cat was just reriged with smaller stuff and it cost less than wire would have.

Weight savings depends on the complexity and number of end fittings. I shaved about 80% of the rigging weight out of the mast on our two boats with dyneema. How significant it is depends on you.

[ausnp84]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Be nice if you could post links to the boats in question....

Patience grasshopper... Pics to come this weekend when we head down for the second (and final) viewing.

N

[Stumble]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I just wonder how many of those who commented negatively on rotating carbon mast have ever sailed such a boat ?


I have sailed an Outremer 51 for a while and I haven't seen any of the negatives that were mentioned. There is only one; extra 70-100.000 Euros to be paid..


Yeloya

I own two rotating masts. An aluminium one on a Corsair Trimaran and a carbon one on my A-Cat. I like them a lot, they really are great on a performance boat, but on a cruising boat I just don't think I would want them that much.

Pinning them into place on centerline sounds about the worst thing I can imagine however. If you really don't want to deal with it then at least allow it to freely rotate. So long as it's pointing directly into the wind they just have less drag than a standard mast, let it get 20 degrees off center and you have the functional equivilant of a couple hundred sq feet of sail area up.

[Oliver L.]

Greg,

excuse my language, but flying a spinnaker to lift the bows in a real blow running downwind is bull...

You may decrease the load on the bows marginally, but at the same time you are increasing speed, which is a much greater concern in heavy weather conditions. Pitchpoling happens when you surf down a wave and meet its predecessor. And we have had times when we were under naked pole and still could not stop the boat from surfing. Thankfully, it so far never got to the point where we had to deploy our drogue, but it made for some interesting times (and some sleepless nights).

The one thing that I wish we had on out boat is a cutter sail. The difference between our genoa with 50 square meters and our storm jib with 15 is just too big...

Oliver