Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-03-2016, 15:19   #16
Registered User
 
ausnp84's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Nazare, Portugal - heading south
Boat: Custom 43ft Steel Ketch but looking at catamarans....
Posts: 301
Re: Choosing a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
I would ask both designers what happens when the boat is overloaded. Say in 1,000lb increments. Even with very tight weight discipline it's hard to keep a cruising boat as light as a race boat, and while they may have the same nominal load carrying capacity the race boat will probably respond to excess weight much faster.

There is also a real question, do you really want to drive a boat hard enough to hit 20kn or more? At these speeds all boats are riding the edge, small mistakes can result in lots of gear breakages.

Second question. What is the race boat designers feeling of running off in big breeze without a spinnaker? On smaller beach cats the greatest risk is of pitch poling from the main driving the bows into the water. A spinnaker reduce this chance by adding a verticle lifting motion to the bows. It very well may be that in big breeze off the wind you have no choice but to fly a spinnaker to keep the bows up.
Good call on doing a weight table. I normally knock up weight & balance tables when I go flying, so something similar for this boat can't hurt.

20kts? I like the fact the boat can do it if we want, but will be just as happy in the teens. That's still double the speed we used to achieve, and means rather than waiting for a 5 day window, we only need 2.5 - 3 days - a much more realistic possibility.

As for the spinnaker, we plan on running an assy - Boat #2 already has the setup for it (just needs a new bowsprit) plus this particular boat is setup as a cutter (as standard) precisely for heavy wind conditions.

Nathan
__________________

__________________
ausnp84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 15:34   #17
Registered User
 
ausnp84's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Nazare, Portugal - heading south
Boat: Custom 43ft Steel Ketch but looking at catamarans....
Posts: 301
Re: Choosing a cat

True, true.

Still, parts break and having just gone through the nightmare of getting a replacement ally mast from the UK to Portugal, I guess we're looking for the max performance, whilst keeping the boat as simple as possible.

That does throw up stainless vs synthetic rigging tho. Is the weight saving worth the extra cost and chafe concerns? I like the fact it's easy to take a spare synthetic stay or two in a small bag (as opposed to having a coil of wire laying about).

N
__________________

__________________
ausnp84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 15:37   #18
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 506
Re: Choosing a cat

A couple of thoughts.

Rotating rigs are a pain on offshore cruisers. Generally The sections are larger so higher windage aloft, greater weight from the greater surface area ( the reality is that most carbon cruising rigs are no lighter than the aluminium sections they replace), and the sloping twisting jerking motion in light sloppy weather must be seen to be appreciated.

In Australia most of the rotating masted cruising cats eventually get the mast mechanically fastened fore and aft. Locking it with a piece of sting just isn't a solution long term. Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

In-fact we are currently sharing a marina with two composite deep chord wing masted cats
that have had this modification. Its fun watching them in the gusts.

With the risk of repeating myself. cruising speed over long periods is primarily a result of waterline length and not things like synthetic rigging, mini keels, or water maker installations.

Check out the ARC results.
__________________
Seaslug Caravan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 15:41   #19
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,453
Images: 69
Re: Choosing a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausnp84 View Post
That does throw up stainless vs synthetic rigging tho. Is the weight saving worth the extra cost and chafe concerns? I like the fact it's easy to take a spare synthetic stay or two in a small bag (as opposed to having a coil of wire laying about).

N
Is synthetic rigging more expensive? I was under the impression it was cheaper than stainless.
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 15:46   #20
Registered User
 
ausnp84's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Nazare, Portugal - heading south
Boat: Custom 43ft Steel Ketch but looking at catamarans....
Posts: 301
Re: Choosing a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Is synthetic rigging more expensive? I was under the impression it was cheaper than stainless.
£2k to re-rig in stainless, £6-£7k in synthetic....

10 years for stainless, 5-8 years for synthetic.

I think there's 6 stays on Boat #2... Would using stainless really translate into that much more weight?

N
__________________
ausnp84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 15:53   #21
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,453
Images: 69
Re: Choosing a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausnp84 View Post
£2k to re-rig in stainless, £6-£7k in synthetic....

10 years for stainless, 5-8 years for synthetic.

I think there's 6 stays on Boat #2... Would using stainless really translate into that much more weight?

N
On those numbers it's hard to justify synthetic on a cruising boat.
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 15:55   #22
Marine Service Provider

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Marmaris
Boat: FP Orana 2010, Lipari 2011, Hélia 2013, Catana C 47 2013
Posts: 1,032
Re: Choosing a cat

I just wonder how many of those who commented negatively on rotating carbon mast have ever sailed such a boat ?


I have sailed an Outremer 51 for a while and I haven't seen any of the negatives that were mentioned. There is only one; extra 70-100.000 Euros to be paid..


Yeloya
__________________
yeloya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 15:58   #23
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,082
Re: Choosing a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan View Post

In-fact we are currently sharing a marina with two composite deep chord wing masted cats
that have had this modification. Its fun watching them in the gusts..
Which marina, which boats
__________________
Factor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 16:01   #24
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,453
Images: 69
Re: Choosing a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Which marina, which boats
LOL! Probably the same place and the same boats he saw me motoring past. Dream Island marina, the boats are fantasy land and imagination....
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 16:09   #25
Registered User
 
ausnp84's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Nazare, Portugal - heading south
Boat: Custom 43ft Steel Ketch but looking at catamarans....
Posts: 301
Re: Choosing a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
On those numbers it's hard to justify synthetic on a cruising boat.
Ok, so Boat #2 is sounding like the right candidate. A few compromises with headroom, age and styling, but less complexity and more cruiser friendly.

For long distance short-handed sailing, it doesn't sound like we'll lose that many miles on Boat #1 either.

N
__________________
ausnp84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 16:12   #26
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,453
Images: 69
Re: Choosing a cat

Be nice if you could post links to the boats in question....
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 16:16   #27
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: Choosing a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausnp84 View Post
£2k to re-rig in stainless, £6-£7k in synthetic....

10 years for stainless, 5-8 years for synthetic.

I think there's 6 stays on Boat #2... Would using stainless really translate into that much more weight?

N
What synthetic are you using? I reriged our trimaran two years ago for about 75% the cost of stainless. Including new end fittings. The line will have to be replaced at 5 years, but the fittings should last for ever (anodized aluminium). I haven't priced large HSR dyneema since then, but my A-Cat was just reriged with smaller stuff and it cost less than wire would have.

Weight savings depends on the complexity and number of end fittings. I shaved about 80% of the rigging weight out of the mast on our two boats with dyneema. How significant it is depends on you.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 16:18   #28
Registered User
 
ausnp84's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Nazare, Portugal - heading south
Boat: Custom 43ft Steel Ketch but looking at catamarans....
Posts: 301
Re: Choosing a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Be nice if you could post links to the boats in question....
Patience grasshopper... Pics to come this weekend when we head down for the second (and final) viewing.

N
__________________
ausnp84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 16:20   #29
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: Choosing a cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by yeloya View Post
I just wonder how many of those who commented negatively on rotating carbon mast have ever sailed such a boat ?


I have sailed an Outremer 51 for a while and I haven't seen any of the negatives that were mentioned. There is only one; extra 70-100.000 Euros to be paid..


Yeloya
I own two rotating masts. An aluminium one on a Corsair Trimaran and a carbon one on my A-Cat. I like them a lot, they really are great on a performance boat, but on a cruising boat I just don't think I would want them that much.

Pinning them into place on centerline sounds about the worst thing I can imagine however. If you really don't want to deal with it then at least allow it to freely rotate. So long as it's pointing directly into the wind they just have less drag than a standard mast, let it get 20 degrees off center and you have the functional equivilant of a couple hundred sq feet of sail area up.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-03-2016, 16:30   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Germany
Boat: secondarily boatless
Posts: 178
Re: Choosing a cat

Greg,

excuse my language, but flying a spinnaker to lift the bows in a real blow running downwind is bull...

You may decrease the load on the bows marginally, but at the same time you are increasing speed, which is a much greater concern in heavy weather conditions. Pitchpoling happens when you surf down a wave and meet its predecessor. And we have had times when we were under naked pole and still could not stop the boat from surfing. Thankfully, it so far never got to the point where we had to deploy our drogue, but it made for some interesting times (and some sleepless nights).

The one thing that I wish we had on out boat is a cutter sail. The difference between our genoa with 50 square meters and our storm jib with 15 is just too big...

Oliver
__________________

__________________
Oliver L. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cat vs Cat vs Cat which one to buy? C-man77 Multihull Sailboats 84 03-10-2015 21:07
Choosing 50-60ft Cat vs a 40-45ft Cat Salacia Multihull Sailboats 24 13-07-2015 07:31
Choosing a Family Cruising Cat on a Budget Ryan B Multihull Sailboats 30 30-10-2014 22:53
Help Choosing Liveaboard Cat for Eight delacroix333 Multihull Sailboats 8 24-08-2010 15:39



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 14:45.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.