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Old 17-06-2015, 08:16   #1426
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2 View Post
Post this on the Searunner thread, those guys would be really interested as Mark H. Was a Searunner legend. The price to build comes down to materials costs, site and labor. These vary widely between locations and ability. Making your own hardware and outfitting simply, sourcing used gear etc.. can bring the price down. Any build is a big task though. Buying a used boat is often a better deal but if the condition is bad it is harder and less straight forward than a new start.
provided its a design you can live with
and the price is commensurate with the refit cost
buying second hand will put you years in front
even with gear you would have to pay for and work you would have to do anyway on new build
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Old 17-06-2015, 19:12   #1427
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Probably not a bad deal for a Catalac 10m if in decent shape.
https://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/5078671607.html


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Old 17-06-2015, 20:18   #1428
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Well, back of the envelope calcs for the quantities Ian Farrier specified for my Command 10 (33' tri) plans are as follows. Prices are taken from the Bote-Cote website, a well reputed Australian supplier and in AUS$.

Plywood:
1/4" (6mm) 15 sheets @$95 = $1425
3/8" (9mm) 61 sheets @$123 = $7503
1/2" (12mm) 25 sheets @$165 = $4125
1" (25mm) 1 sheet @$225 = $225

912' of timber (approx 273 lineal metres). [NB: He doesn't specify these, so ther'll be 2"x1", 3"x1", 4"x1", 3"x2", 4"x2" etc, so an average is probably 4"x1" @$8/m, so approx $2184

50kg epoxy glue; 50kg epoxy resin for glassing = 100kg @ $722/30kg = $2160

Fibreglass:
e-glass cloth approx 75sq m (60 lin m off 1.27m wide rolls). Based on a quick calc, this is not enough to cover the whole boat, so was probably only for the wetted areas of the hulls as a membrane and abrasion resistance. the rest of the hulls would have relied on epoxy coating only for waterproofing and the strength of the specified timber.
I suspect many would have been done in epoxy only, so the spec probably relies on the strength in the timber and plywood rather than in the glass.
Also, many low-cost builders in the seventies used matt glass, rather than woven fabric, which has no strength at all, so Ian probably took that into consideration in the spec as well.

These days, builders might choose to use thinner ply, less scantlings, and stiffer biaxial (double-diagonal) fabric at a higher rate, such as 8oz or more, and taped joins rather than tiber scantlings to reduce weight.
This depends on builder preference.

But at 8oz (225gsm) double-bias (biaxial, double-diagonal, whatever it's called in your locale) 45deg x 45deg woven fibre @ $14.50/sq m = $1125.

So if you chose to use a lighter ply like 4mm, and used 100mm double-bias tapes on the joints and then 8oz cloth over the hulls only, you'd need to recalculate the above.

If you chose to do the 'original method' and only use 6oz cloth, or less, as a waterproof mebrane only, then substitute
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Old 17-06-2015, 20:26   #1429
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Probably not a bad deal for a Catalac 10m if in decent shape.
https://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/5078671607.html


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Nice find! I've seen 8M Catalacs priced just as high. This one is an '84, which is of the more recent vintage.
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Old 17-06-2015, 20:29   #1430
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Just had a thought! You buy it, sail it to California and I'll buy it from you when you get there!

It might be the right economical boat for you though since you're now without a big boat.

Pretty stout boat! ("pretty" modifies stout, just so there's no confusion)
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Old 17-06-2015, 21:45   #1431
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Well, back of the envelope calcs for the quantities Ian Farrier specified for my Command 10 (33' tri) plans are as follows. Prices are taken from the Bote-Cote website, a well reputed Australian supplier and are in 2015 AUS$$.

Plywood (Heavy build – original):
1/4" (6mm) 15 sheets @$95 = $1425
3/8" (9mm) 61 sheets @$123 = $7503
1/2" (12mm) 25 sheets @$165 = $4125
1" (25mm) 1 sheet @$225 = $225

Plywood (Lightweight build – modern):
1/4" (6mm) 76 sheets @$95 = $7220
3/8" (9mm)25 sheets @$123 = $3075
1" (25mm) 1 sheet @$225 = $225

912' of timber (approx 273 lineal metres). [NB: He doesn't specify these, so ther'll be 2"x1", 3"x1", 4"x1", 3"x2", 4"x2" etc, so an average is probably 4"x1" @$8/m, so approx $2184

50kg epoxy glue; 50kg epoxy resin for glassing = 100kg @ $722/30kg = $2160

Fibreglass:
e-glass cloth approx 75sq m (60 lin m off 1.27m wide rolls). Based on a quick calc, this is not enough to cover the whole boat, so was probably only for the wetted areas of the hulls as a waterproof membrane and abrasion resistance. The rest of the hulls would have relied on epoxy coating only for waterproofing and the strength of the specified timber.

I suspect many would have been done in epoxy only, so the spec probably relies on the strength in the timber and plywood rather than in the glass.

Also, many low-cost builders in the seventies used matt glass, rather than woven fabric, which has no strength at all, so Ian probably took that into consideration in the spec as well.

These days, builders might choose to use thinner ply, less scantlings, and stiffer biaxial (double-diagonal) fabric at a higher rate, such as 8oz or more, and taped joins rather than timber scantlings to reduce weight.

This depends on builder preference.

If you chose to do the 'original method' and only use 6oz cloth, or less, as a waterproof membrane only, then use 60 lin m of 60z @ $6.50/sq m = $390

So if you chose to use a lighter ply for the hull skins, like 4mm instead of 9mm, and substitute 9mm for the 12mm in the specs, and used 100mm double-bias tapes on the joints and then 8oz cloth over the entire hulls, you'd need to recalculate the above.

You’d probably use half as much again in fabric, stiffening stress points and using double layers for additional load-bearing, so say 90sq m rather than 75sq m, or around 70 lin m off 1.27m wide rolls.

Using 8oz (225gsm) double-bias fabric (biaxial, double-diagonal, whatever it's called in your locale) 45deg x 45deg woven fibre @ $14.50/sq m x 70lm = $1015.

You’d also need to reduce the amount for timber scantlings, say by half, and replace with double-bias fabric tapes. So half the amount for timber: $2184/2=$1092

Approx half the scantlings in fabric tape would be approx 420 lin m of 8oz double-bias tape, 100m wide @ $1.20/m = $504

Plus you’d probably need at least as much again for stiffening bulkhead joins and anywhere the lighter-weight sheets join, so double that and add another $504

Plus you’d need extra epoxy to wet out the heavier fabric and tapes, say a third as much again as a guess, so 120kg (up from 90) = $2888.

So building in the traditional ‘ply/epoxy’ method with heavy scantlings, light fabric and mainly epoxy waterproofing cost would be around = $18,012.00

Going with lighter ply, heavier fabric, taped joins, approx = $16,523.00

Then on top of the hull costs you have:
Mast and rigging approx $6K
Sails approx $7K
Hatches and ports approx $2K
Paint and anti-fouling approx $1.5K
For a total of approx = $17.5K

So total of $35,512 for the traditional method, or $34,023 for the ‘modern’ method.

Not much change out of $40K by the time you add instruments and incidentals, screws, fastenings etc.

Add in say 4000 thousand hours of labour, (roughly 2 years full-time work) at say $20/hr, and this adds $80K to that.

So you’d need to charge $129K just to break even, straight out of the shed, which is why any ply-built trimaran under $120K is ‘good value’, and anything les than $50K is a bargain.

I’ve actually seen a Command 10 for sale, here in Australia, just last year, asking $89K.

If I had the cash I would have bought it and saved myself the back-breaking labour, and just gone sailing!

So even a ‘fixer-upper’ that has no hull rot, just in the topsides and wings, is probably still a bargain at anything less than US$40K.
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Old 17-06-2015, 22:30   #1432
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

48' CATAMARAN PROJECT
For Sale
48' Cruising Catamaran Project.
The Atlantic 46LR, Lr means stretched to 48, I planed to stretch it a bit more to 50'.
This is a project that I have been working on for years now. But time, money and health have sidelined it sometime ago, and it looks like I'm not going to finish it. It's taken me a good year to come to terms with that fact. So I'm looking to let it go. What's the old saw? Let go or be dragged. Most all of the components are built. I have the western red cedar for the hulls. Also have the uni glass for the hulls and the db170 for structural assembly. I have a full inventory list. This is a tough thing to do, but I'm ready to move on. I don't wish to be rude or anti social, but I'd like to ask that if your not interested in buying this project there's not much point in talking about it. Please don't take offense I'm just not into shooting the **** about my failed dreams. Send me a PM and we can talk. I'm looking to recoup half of what I have in the project. $30k
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Old 18-06-2015, 04:34   #1433
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Quote:
Originally Posted by snort View Post
Just had a thought! You buy it, sail it to California and I'll buy it from you when you get there!

It might be the right economical boat for you though since you're now without a big boat.

Pretty stout boat! ("pretty" modifies stout, just so there's no confusion)

I think the Catalacs are great boats, but not for me!
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Old 18-06-2015, 07:16   #1434
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

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Probably not a bad deal for a Catalac 10m if in decent shape.
https://treasure.craigslist.org/boa/5078671607.html
Some days I wish I had a spare $40k...
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Old 18-06-2015, 09:06   #1435
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Cool take on it Buzzman. The ply boats I've seen in the US, even in the more modern vintages, almost universally were selling in the 10-20k range for boats 26-30 feet. It would seem the depreciation schedule is very rapid for these then.


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Old 18-06-2015, 17:42   #1436
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Yeah, it makes sense to buy second hand, provided you can get into the bilges an under bunks and so on.

On old-style fixed wing tris it tends to be the wings that rot out, as they flex and allow water in, and then they rot from the inside out.

But if you treat the boat with disodium octobroate tetrahydrate, even if it's painted, the borate salts should penetrate. Of course it's better if you can sand it back a bit, and any raw wood should be treated before installing.

If a ply boat built today, and using DOT as preservative, and looked after reasonably well, is not still sailing in 50 years I'll eat my hat.

Of course, I won't be around in 50 years, so for me that's a safe bet! lol
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Old 22-06-2015, 13:01   #1437
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

crowther 28 tri fl 28 ft. Trimaran

sea clipper 28 nj Sea Clipper 28' Trimaran, 1996, Neptune, New Jersey, sailboat for sale from Sailing Texas, yacht for sale

there is also a crowther cat on hawaii craigslist for around 55k

keep 'em coming!
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Old 23-06-2015, 14:26   #1438
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

Wharam 38 in bc

sailing machine needs tlc reduced
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Old 24-06-2015, 04:08   #1439
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

When I see boats like that Bucc 28 for sale in the States I just want to cry.


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Old 24-06-2015, 17:06   #1440
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Re: Cheap Multis and Projects

+1 - even if it's only half rotten, that's still an excellent deal at US$2200.

Over this side of the pond, that would be anywhere between $10K and $30K depending on the thickness of the ruby-tinted glasses of the owner.

But realistically it's still a AUS$5K boat at rock-bottom money.

I coudn't build the bare hulls of my 24' tri for what they're asking for a complete 28' Bucc.

Sigh.
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