Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Flightpaul

D&D, thanks for comments, but off topic.
I should have said, that we are dinghy sailors and therefore windward performance is important. This has been proven by my friend in the S.Pacific, when he wants to get to an Atoll (and there is wind). This is important, as you cannot just plug in to get power or fuel up with diesel... there is not any!

I was a dighy sailor too, in a previous life, and raced for many years including many (thousands of) offshore miles. We sail to windward now too, when we have to, although we embrace a dear friend's favorite expression (that applies to ALL yachts in our humble experience) "Nothing goes to windward like a 747!"

We crossed the Pacific (and the Atlantic) too in our delivery (Italy to OZ, via the Panama Canal) voyage. In that voyage of just under 14000nm, we burned ~1500 litres of diesel; some simple maths on those numbers will 'prove' that we kept the sails up and engines off...and we can assure you there was plenty of upwaind sailing in those miles. So we know all about both being where there is no diesel...and managing just fine without it.

We say again...we are quite entitled to question the idea that someone on boat X is more of a 'real sailor' than someone on boat Y.

We also again wish you well in your search for the right vessel for you.

[dirkdig]

Well said d&d

[Jane.Joy]

Originally Posted by dirkdig

Well said d&d

ditto

[bevcory]

I am also new to this site and have been reading the forum with much interest. I am currently in the process of buying a Voyage Maxim 380 (waiting for the survey report) and make the following comments, which may be at odds with many, but as we all have our preferences I will state my reasons. I have previously owned monohulls, having built my first (steel Van de Stadt 36) and Tayana 37 (which I owned for 7 years and single handed most of the time). I have sailed professionally for many years, on many monohulls but also sailed cats on deliveries and on charter as both crew and skipper. I have been out of the sailing world for too many years (now working in the deserts of West Africa) but time to return to the sea.
In my earlier sailing days I was a devout monohuller, but as designs and ideas change, I have now decided on a cat.
A 38 foot cat is small enough for single handing (I am not as young anymore) but big enough for guests - this is a 2 queen, 1 double, 2 head layout.
- I have always enjoyed galley up and the Maxim offers a secure galley
- I like the cockpit set up and decent dinghy davits and transom support (also walk through, whereas older models you had to step over)
- I always regretted never having a decent dinghy with a 15hp outboard, especially as a diver. It was a luxury on the monohull for me I could not manage, but can with this
- I could state all the trite remarks about gentlemen (or in my case ladies) don't go to windward, but I believe that strategic weather planning will enable me to avoid many of the adverse conditions - don't get me wrong - I have weathered hurricanes, cyclones, 70 knots between NZ and Oz and horrific windward passages so am not being silly, but if time is not of the essence, then I can better plan the passages - what does an extra day or 2 mean?
- I have always loved the Voyage yachts, and in fact worked for them when they first started in the BVIs - I remember the boats arriving directly from Capetown - we hosed them down and were showing them a day later to the new owners - not bad for charter boats
- there will be some changes I will need to make, to ensure I will be best able to single hand her, but good ground tackle, adding a screecher, some additional electronics, back up auto pilot and I can start. I am not a fan of wind generators but will certainly add solar panels.
- at present I will keep her in the Caribbean whilst I build up the crusing kitty, then which way? Not sure - there a great big old world out there to explore.
Thanks again for all the useful information - guess you wll be hearing more from me!

[Southern Star]

Yes, thanks D & D - I and others tire of being insulted by those who suggest that only owners of one or two models of catamarans are 'real' sailors; so too of the suggestion that all other cats are 'condomarans'. To consider the monohull equivalent, it seems that everyone from Joshua Slocumb to the Pardeys, who did not choose windward demons for their circumnavigations, were also not 'real sailors' like Flightpaul.

While this seems to come as a surprise to some, even real sailors can have different priorities, objectives and budgets. Perhaps we should try to respect them and say, 'Vive la difference!'

Brad

[ratcatcher]

Originally Posted by Adaero

Setting Sail 2009,

I have just completed the huge 2 year task of selecting a cat for extended cruising. I ended up similar to yourself with a shortlist of 3 boats but included in mine was the Leopard 46 which I have ordered for delivery in September. I discounted the Catana's early on. This was purely due to cost, when fully equipped it was the most expensive out of the initial 12 boats on my list. The Outremer was also discounted as it’s a performance boat with very narrow hulls that didn’t have the load carrying capacity for all the home comforts that we required (i.e. washing machine, aircon etc.). I personally could have quite easily done without a lot of gadgets but the admiral would have none of it so it was therefore removed. I will talk to you about the Fastcat in a moment.

As mentioned before on the Forum I produced a spreadsheet detailing features that were important to us and then scored each feature making sure we loaded items we felt were most important. I have spoken with Phil Burman a few times during my selection process and although Phil is extremely knowledgeable in this field, boats are very personal and at the end of the day he can only offer his opinion. If you want a copy of my spreadsheet send me your email address as I can’t post spreadsheets on the forum. You can roughly fill in a spreadsheet using catalogues and the net but make sure you actually go and see it and preferably stay on board before you finalise your marks. The spreadsheet will help you stay focussed on what you want as I spent weeks swinging from one boat to another and then back again. A quick glance at the scores reminds you why you favoured that boat.

I had the pleasure of meeting Gideon early last year in Amsterdam when we went to view the Fastcat. I can honestly say I have never met someone so passionate about their company and product. The Fastcat was our other boat short listed, it’s extremely light and very fast but has enormous load carrying capability, all the equipment and fittings are top of the range and the best available on the market, when you collect the boat Gideon spends at least 2 weeks with you teaching you everything about the boat systems and how to get the best performance out of it whilst sailing, the boat comes with everything, full safety equipment, extensive toolkit and all you would require for water sailing">blue water sailing. So you are now asking yourself why I didn’t buy one? Price was the final factor (and not a lot, around 15% on top of the Leopard) and strangely enough if you look at it long term in about three years time they will have probably cost me about the same. Just to explain, the Fastcat uses Dyneema lines not polyester which will have to be replaced in a couple of years, better quality rigging, water pumps and all the other boat systems I will end up replacing earlier than I would have with a Fastcat. My trouble is currently the difference is too much unless I delay my program by 12-18 months, which I’m not prepared to do.

Adaero

Hello Adaero, can you send me the spreadsheet you speak of. My email is beertjies61 at gmail.com. Thank you.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Adaero

Setting Sail 2009,




I had the pleasure of meeting Gideon early last year in Amsterdam when we went to view the Fastcat. I can honestly say I have never met someone so passionate about their company and product. The Fastcat was our other boat short listed, it’s extremely light and very fast but has enormous load carrying capability, all the equipment and fittings are top of the range and the best available on the market, when you collect the boat Gideon spends at least 2 weeks with you teaching you everything about the boat systems and how to get the best performance out of it whilst sailing, the boat comes with everything, full safety equipment, extensive toolkit and all you would require for blue water sailing. So you are now asking yourself why I didn’t buy one? Price was the final factor (and not a lot, around 15% on top of the Leopard) and strangely enough if you look at it long term in about three years time they will have probably cost me about the same. Just to explain, the Fastcat uses Dyneema lines not polyester which will have to be replaced in a couple of years, better quality rigging, water pumps and all the other boat systems I will end up replacing earlier than I would have with a Fastcat. My trouble is currently the difference is too much unless I delay my program by 12-18 months, which I’m not prepared to do.

Adaero

Hooeee!

I'll bet you are glad you didn't buy a Fastcat now (if you have kept up on Gideon). Passion yes. Delivering that passion, not so much.

[bazcatana]

bazcatana here,

What Cat to buy ????

It's taken me 5 years to sort out what is good and what is not so good Cat design, what ever I say will be shot down by everyone.

There are 6 important sailing choices, 7 if you include Fly Bridges and another 6/10 comfort decisions and then a few must have on board.

Sailing: Most production Cats give you 1 of the 6 you need.
Comfort: Most production Cats give you all 8 of what you might not need to sail well but, this is the Comfort item.
Other: Off the shelf Cats will not have any of what you need.

I will tell you in 14 days time all about it but not now.

There is an 8th item not listed above and that is Water tight Bulkheads for Blue Water sailing, I know, Cats don't sink do they.

My Catana 381 has 4 Water tight Bulkheads, one in each corner, it reduces the living space so Production Cats will not want to have them.

In the bad old days of Square Riggers who foundered because they could not point to windward seems to tell us we need to point. So how does a heavy, fat hulled, reduced sail area, low bridge-deck clearance, self tacking Jib, make for a good design.

Somebody please tell me, if you need 6/7 ingredients for good sailing, forgetting comfort for a while, how is it the designers keep on selling us cats with only 1 or 2 of the 6/7 things that makes Cats sail well, why is this?????

Contact me through this Email and I will tell you what to do bazcatanaATyahooDOTcoDOTuk

Regards

Barry Parkinson

[Flightpaul]

I am guessing you will get your 381 in a couple of weeks?
It is one that I am considering.
I would like to know all the numbers you talk about... reasons for a cat to criuse etc.
I will own up, I am a boat builder and have considered all the options for world cruising. A cat comes out on top (stowage and performance).
Which type?? I need one that sails!
This means it must go up wind.
This narrows the choice somewhat to Catana or Outremer, Catana being the more liveable option.
I also am in contact with a friend in the S.Pacific in a Catana 431who has been sailing for over 3.5 years on the boat and still resits coming home!
I talk with him and his family often about all things cruising and about the boat. His next will be the ultimate (based on experience), a Catana 471.
What does this tell you?
Regards all.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by bazcatana

bazcatana here,

What Cat to buy ????

It's taken me 5 years to sort out what is good and what is not so good Cat design, what ever I say will be shot down by everyone.

There are 6 important sailing choices, 7 if you include Fly Bridges and another 6/10 comfort decisions and then a few must have on board.

Sailing: Most production Cats give you 1 of the 6 you need.
Comfort: Most production Cats give you all 8 of what you might not need to sail well but, this is the Comfort item.
Other: Off the shelf Cats will not have any of what you need.

With the greatest respect to your 5 years of sorting -- We spent only a mere 4 years, during which we sailed ~30 different cats, both production and one-offs -- we suggest your "what is good and what is not so good Cat design" will (as did ours in the same categories...and probably everyone else's as well) reflect your priorities, rather than a one-list-will-suit-all checklist.

Now with >18000nm sailing our cat (including every conceivable condition and all wind angles, other than hurricanes) we remain absolutely convinced she was the right design for us...and with that perspective we say...

Horses-for-courses...each to their own...and we wish everyone fair winds!

[Stella Polaris]

Originally Posted by bazcatana

bazcatana here,

What Cat to buy ????

It's taken me 5 years to sort out what is good and what is not so good Cat design, what ever I say will be shot down by everyone.

There are 6 important sailing choices, 7 if you include Fly Bridges and another 6/10 comfort decisions and then a few must have on board.

Sailing: Most production Cats give you 1 of the 6 you need.
Comfort: Most production Cats give you all 8 of what you might not need to sail well but, this is the Comfort item.
Other: Off the shelf Cats will not have any of what you need.

I will tell you in 14 days time all about it but not now.

There is an 8th item not listed above and that is Water tight Bulkheads for Blue Water sailing, I know, Cats don't sink do they.

My Catana 381 has 4 Water tight Bulkheads, one in each corner, it reduces the living space so Production Cats will not want to have them.

In the bad old days of Square Riggers who foundered because they could not point to windward seems to tell us we need to point. So how does a heavy, fat hulled, reduced sail area, low bridge-deck clearance, self tacking Jib, make for a good design.

Somebody please tell me, if you need 6/7 ingredients for good sailing, forgetting comfort for a while, how is it the designers keep on selling us cats with only 1 or 2 of the 6/7 things that makes Cats sail well, why is this?????

Contact me through this Email and I will tell you what to do bazcatanaATyahooDOTcoDOTuk

Regards

Barry Parkinson

Hi Barry,

Choosing a cat is a tough decision. This thread helped me select a boat that took me from Norway to Australia. I was happy with the boat I used, but as with everything, you live and learn. On that journey I learned what was important to me and my priorities will be a bit different when I select a boat for my next journey.

The thing to keep in mind is that the perfect boat doesn't exist. It's all about making compromises. Decide what you really don't want to compromise on and select a cat based on that. You need to find what's right for you and not worry too much about what others say. Get their advice if you feel you need it, but trust your own feelings and thoughts and make a decision based on that.

- Andreas

[Gordon]

Well said Andreas, everyones priorities are different. As most time is spent on anchor, for us a comfortable live aboard setup was important. Having said that we also wanted to cross oceans, so a blend of blue water capability and a comfortable home with the ability to be managed by a couple was our choice.
There are so many choices but these ultimately it comes down to how large your budget is.
Good luck!

[D&D]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Well said Andreas, everyones priorities are different. As most time is spent on anchor, for us a comfortable live aboard setup was important. Having said that we also wanted to cross oceans, so a blend of blue water capability and a comfortable home with the ability to be managed by a couple was our choice.
There are so many choices but these ultimately it comes down to how large your budget is.
Good luck!

...and well said Gordon too!

Do we gather from your details that you are now (when?) moved on from the beautiful La Rochelle? We would love to catch up with you both sometime soon, perhaps sharing "time spent" on some exquisite anchorage somewhere...any voyage plans?

Warm regards,
Don & Di

[Gordon]

Hi Don, Yes 'La Rochelle' was sold last Easter to a family living here in Sydney. We have a maestro version of the new He'lia 44 on order which Lou and I pick up in La Rochelle next April/May and then the slow voyage home over 18-30 mths, depends if we spend two spring / summer seasons in the Med.
Now at the fun stage researching and setting up for our adventure ahead.

Cheers Gordon.

[beiland]

I noticed there were 2 recent postings making reference to this fellow Adaero.

When I looked on this forum I saw his last entry was sometime in 2010
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post431401

And when I go to his website I see he stopped making log entries in 2009...no 2010 entries
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Strange? He left no parting words?