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Old 30-03-2012, 05:50   #481
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

However you would be making lots of time and distance going sideways upwind.....think motorsailor..
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Old 30-03-2012, 12:30   #482
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Re: Charter Cats

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Originally Posted by georgetheleo View Post
Charter Cats seem to have cheap "guts" and low cost sails---you might think of adding a requirement to have effective "Rub Rails" to your list.
Rubrails are good, a ton of fenders are better

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Your not going anywhere much upwind without daggerboards or engines on in the typical Charter oriented Condomarans offered these days.
Mini-keels also work well and though daggerboards are nice, they add a bunch of factors the not all cruisers want to deal with. I wouldn't recommend daggerboards to a novice sailor.
Condomarans might not be ideal upwind, but to be honest we all try to avoid it when cruising, because it is unpleasant whether you're on mono or a multi.
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Old 30-03-2012, 14:03   #483
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Re: Charter Cats

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Originally Posted by SettingSail2009 View Post
Rubrails are good, a ton of fenders are better


Mini-keels also work well and though daggerboards are nice, they add a bunch of factors the not all cruisers want to deal with. I wouldn't recommend daggerboards to a novice sailor.
Condomarans might not be ideal upwind, but to be honest we all try to avoid it when cruising, because it is unpleasant whether you're on mono or a multi.
I keep reading about how "difficult" daggerboards are. They're not. They are simple. Sailing to windward you lower them, sailing downwind you raise them. It's really not rocket science, honest.
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Old 30-03-2012, 14:07   #484
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Re: Charter Cats

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Originally Posted by SettingSail2009 View Post
Rubrails are good, a ton of fenders are better


Mini-keels also work well and though daggerboards are nice, they add a bunch of factors the not all cruisers want to deal with. I wouldn't recommend daggerboards to a novice sailor.
Condomarans might not be ideal upwind, but to be honest we all try to avoid it when cruising, because it is unpleasant whether you're on mono or a multi.
Hear him! Hear him! We should add a favorite expression, embraced based on our ~40000nm at sea and stolen from another yachtie with probably 10 times our experience, on both mono's and cat's...'Nothing goes to windward like a 747!'

There sure seems to be a lot of cheap shots being bandied about here, largely directed toward 'condomorans' and 'charter cats'. If we're really on topic here, viz. the characteristics of a circumnavigating cat, then we should quietly note that our 'condomoran' -- We won't call her a charter cat as she was never in charter, although there are MANY like her in charter use -- has taken us ~20000nm in great comfort and safety...and at appropriate speeds for her size as well. We probably now prefer life 'on the hook', relaxing in great comfort (with loads of space and NO ROLLING) rather than the passage making, but we always head into our passage making confident that we are on a very seaworthy 'blue water' vessel.

So we might ask those thinking about buying a circumnavigating cat, what's more important to you...comfort or speed? If speed is your thing, go for the dagger boards and narrow hulls and very light weight. For us, however, and especially when travelling long distances over varied conditions, we prefer to travel in comfort. We're not the quickest boat out there, but we also pass plenty of boats. Our top speeds are quick enough for us (>20kn surfing and 10-15kn in ideal sailing conditions) and, most importantly, our average speeds over long distances (6-7kn) are both appropriate for our length and well suited for COMFORTABLE passage planning.

We say boat buying is 'horses-for-courses'. Everyone needs to carefully assess their own priorities. Unlike those here who seem to feel a need to take cheap shots at other's boats, we wish those on the speed machines well...and we wish everyone safe passage with fair winds and following seas.
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Old 30-03-2012, 14:50   #485
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Re: Charter Cats

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There sure seems to be a lot of cheap shots being bandied about here, largely directed toward 'condomorans' and 'charter cats'.
You won't hear them coming from me. In fact I agree with a lot of the things you said.

I will take a long close look at the "chartercats" when I buy my next boat. I'd rather spend my money cruising than spending every last dime getting a "speed demon". I completely emptied my purse buying the FastCat (and lost a fortune more when I sold her) and though she got me safely from Norway to Australia, I'll buy a boat I can afford the next time, because the cruising aspect will be infinitely more enjoyable. My priorities are different now, based on sailing halfway around the globe. Let's just say that when I talk to people about the awesome adventure, I talk about the places I saw, the people I met, the fish we caught, the food we made on passages, not the number of nautical miles sailed per day.

A friend of mine said it well: Why do you want a high performance boat that will take you as fast as possible from one anchorage to the next? I thought you liked sailing.
I agree with him. Whenever I've done a long passage of 1 -3 weeks, I honestly don't care if it takes an extra day or two (or 5). I love sailing and the people that sail with me have without fail always commented that they wished the passage would have lasted longer.

When I was cruising I had supplies to last for months, fresh water, extra fuel, a ton of gear ... Do you honestly think a 43 foot cat will rip along with all that extra weight? ... On an average we saw anything from 5-7 knots on passages, sometimes more, rarely less (but it happened). Basically the same as the condomarans ... On any given day, we'd probably sail a bit faster (it was afterall a FastCat ) but the difference on long passages was negligible. When going from Galapagos to the Marquesas, every boat that sailed a week before us, sailed faster than us ... every one. Because they had a better weather window. We sailed faster than the boats that sailed with us, but I arrived a day earlier than one, a few hours before another and in the end when we were getting drunk celebrating that's not what we were talking about.

I recently told a guy that wrote me, that you should pick a boat you're comfortable onboard. You'll spend 9 out of 10 days on the hook, so why not make the boat shine in that area and if you miss out on a few nautical miles per 24 hours on the passage. So what? You'll see the same sunsets, share the same drinks and stories on a cheap boat as you will from an expensive one. You might actually have more cash left for drinks if you buy a cheaper boat
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Old 30-03-2012, 15:22   #486
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Re: Charter Cats

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I keep reading about how "difficult" daggerboards are. They're not. They are simple. Sailing to windward you lower them, sailing downwind you raise them. It's really not rocket science, honest.
Don't get me wrong, they aren't difficult to use, but they raise the bar.

To quote Gregor Tarjan in his book Catamarans: "A well known fact and possibly the single biggest disadvantage of daggerboard cats is the vulnerability of the boards and trunk in collisions. This is most detrimental in the case of poorly built and designed trunks, which cause flooding on impact. Obviously this is not the case with keels, which would deflect a minor obstacle or, in case of hitting a container or whale, simply break off. The best protection against collision damage are sacrificial mini keels which would simply sheer off, leaving the hull completely intact".

To me this is raising the bar ... When you're far away from home and the unthinkable happens: you hit something. Even a small touch and go could be a big deal on a daggerboard cat. Assuming the daggerboard breaks off cleanly and there's no damage to the trunk, you're still short a board ... It's not like you carry spares "just in case" ... or do you? Getting a replacement is not straightforward mid passage, or on some of the more isolated islands I've sailed to. More than one daggerboard has been broken after a long passage, because people forget to raise the it before heading into shallows. I know I could forget something like that...

I've also heard of complaints of daggerboards vibrating, creating a rattle inside the boat, but to most I'm sure that's not going to be a problem.

To again quote Gregor Tarjan in his book Catamarans: "Although it must be said that the speed difference between a daggerboard and mini keel catamaran can often be minor and compensated for by good seamanship, a clean bottom and a light boat. Generally speaking, however, daggerboard catamarans will always be slightly faster than their keel equivalents, though the speed advantage of most daggerboard catamarans vs. keel katamarans is often exaggerated".

In terms of leeway, he calculates that a daggerboard cat will have 2-5 degrees less than a keel catamaran.

This argument has been fought over a 1000 times before and it will no doubt be fought over a 1000 times in the future, it boils down to how you want to cruise: Do you want high performance, sleek hulls, light weight, etc, or do you want more comfort? ... On a weekend warrior I could do with less comfort and a higher performance, but when I circumnavigate? ... I'd put a focus on comfort, because I know the performance will be less than ideal with all the crap I'll add to make the journey possible. Not to mention that I won't be sailing the boat "hard", because I don't want to chance something breaking.
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Old 30-03-2012, 15:23   #487
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

Having a "fast" boat doesn't mean you MUST sail EVERYWHERE at 20+ kts!

You are allowed to slow down. Also speed doesn't neccessarily come at the expense of comfort.

To me, the real benefit of a "fast" boat is when the wind is light - we can keep sailing when others are motor sailing. To me that's a form of comfort - I hate running the engines!

Or we can sail at worthwhile speeds on the really nice days, when there's around 10kts breeze, the seas are flat and the sun's shining.

And if we want, we can spend a bit longer at the nice anchorages, while other are up and gone while it's still dark, we can get up later, have a decent breakfast, then leave.... that's comfort too.
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Old 30-03-2012, 15:30   #488
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Re: Charter Cats

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In terms of leeway, he calculates that a daggerboard cat will have 2-5 degrees less than a keel catamaran.
Think of a long trip, like across the pond. That's a fair bit of difference, actually.
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Old 30-03-2012, 15:42   #489
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

It always seems people think in extremes only. ie a "fast" boat MUST be a bare bones, carbon fibre, saw the handles off your toothbrushes, ablolute racing machine.

And expensive too.

But there are many shades of grey. For a cruising boat, we're towards the performance end of the spectrum, but there are faster boats around for certain. I don't make the assumption that anything faster will be less comfortable - it's just not true. For instance, our old steel mono was much slower AND far less comfortable than this boat.. Our boat didn't cost the earth either.

I guess the real point is, the people who say "fast" boats are uncomfortable, most likely haven't been on one.

re: breaking daggerboards. If they are built right they will have a "sacrificial" end. A very lightly built 1/2 metre which can break off on impact with no other damage. (Just like the mini-keels)

And most of the time they are raised - once again, you only lower them sailing to windward.

And if you did somehow manage to break both, you can still sail - you'd just have to put up with a bit more leeway - just like having minikeels.
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Old 30-03-2012, 17:42   #490
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I may be wrong but it seems it would be easier to repair or replace a daggerboard than to repair or replace a mini keel. No need to haul out.
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Old 30-03-2012, 18:33   #491
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

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I may be wrong but it seems it would be easier to repair or replace a daggerboard than to repair or replace a mini keel. No need to haul out.
correct
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Old 30-03-2012, 20:06   #492
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

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...speed doesn't neccessarily come at the expense of comfort.

To me, the real benefit of a "fast" boat is when the wind is light - we can keep sailing when others are motor sailing. To me that's a form of comfort - I hate running the engines!

Or we can sail at worthwhile speeds on the really nice days, when there's around 10kts breeze, the seas are flat and the sun's shining.
...and comfort doesn't necessarily come at the expense of speed!

Our only 'performance' criteria in our vessel search was to keep moving in light wind as there's often light wind along the OZ coast. We didn't want to spend all that loot on a sailing vessel and end up listening to the diesels!

Perhaps thanks to the 'square top' main that seems to extract a lot of power out of not much wind, but for whatever reason we move along very well in the light stuff, especially in flat conditions, including TWS <10kn and with SOG ~60% of TWS. So no 'speed machine', but definitely no need to turn on the engines! Our performance seems more vulnerable to the sea state -- Wave impacts slow us down -- than the wind.

Anyway, the point to be made here is that 'condomorans' keep moving just fine in the light stuff too!
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Old 30-03-2012, 20:31   #493
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

I have a 36ft Catamaran with daggerboards. When going upwing in a breeze of 18mph it outpoints a condomaran about 20 degrees -dont know what the 'leeway is" as for the boards to be effective the boat must be making some leeway and be cocked into the wind-otherwise no lift to windward--when the wind is lighter upwing I pull the windward board up for less drag and the boat points less too. I use the boards all the time as I never sail dead downwing. I broke a board off Marathon FLoida by messing around in shallow water and clipped a corral reef. It took 3 days work to repair-no damage to Hull -next time I wont do that!!However the remaining board performed well as a substitute and was probably only 15% less efficient being on the windward(wrong) side. Without boards my boaty wouldnt be fun.
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Old 30-03-2012, 20:36   #494
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Re: Charter Cats

Quote:
Originally Posted by SettingSail2009 View Post
Rubrails are good, a ton of fenders are better


Mini-keels also work well and though daggerboards are nice, they add a bunch of factors the not all cruisers want to deal with. I wouldn't recommend daggerboards to a novice sailor.
Condomarans might not be ideal upwind, but to be honest we all try to avoid it when cruising, because it is unpleasant whether you're on mono or a multi.
You may try to avoid sailing upwind-but in my experience many times there is no option and a upwind performing sailboaty is somewhat safer because of this ability.
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Old 30-03-2012, 20:43   #495
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

Id prefer a Outremer 44 even if it has brass skin fittings and bad wire!!!!:v iking: I dont want condo guests!!
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