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Old 24-08-2011, 03:01   #451
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True the flybridge/ boom higher does reduce sail.
But with a fuller main or a squaretop you can more than compensate for this.
How it worked for me was the boom is 6.5 meters x1m of higher boom area = 6.5m2 of sail lost.
Standard factory sail is 71m2 with my new main i upped it to 81 m2 so therefore in theory i am in front and have the luxury of he flybridge and the extra room in the cockpit with out the steering station eating into the area.
It is each to his own and i think for my once i have had flybridge i will never go back.
4 cabins is for us too as its a social thing and when a cabins not being used i can fill it with surfboards!
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Old 24-08-2011, 04:12   #452
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

Cheers Andreas...what we were saying (poorly perhaps) was that, for a vessel of our size, there was no loss of performance relative to other vessels of the same size observed over a long distance voyage.

Different strokes indeed. We wish you well in your search.
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Old 24-08-2011, 11:15   #453
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

Great proven circumnavigating cats are the Privilege 42 and 48 (most have been around) various Lagoons - I prefer the 470, but "no problem circuits" have been done in all from the 380 to the 570, with the 440 being very popular, Fp Venizia 42, etc. There is nothing wrong with a production Cat if properly outfitted. And I would concentrate more on extra sails and electronics and less on Sea Anchors and drogues. With modern Weather forecasting and a quick cat there is little reason for a cruiser to be caught is extreme conditions.
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Old 25-09-2011, 04:40   #454
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

8 months have passed since I sold "African Innovation" my FastCat 435 and bought a house in Stavanger (In Norway for the geographically challenged). Being back on land after sailing for 2 1/2 years has had all the usual challenges, but because I'm studying towards a "Master Unlimited" certification I've kept in close touch with the oceans. It's funny to think that I began this thread in April 2007 when I started looking for a boat. As such this seems to be the perfect place for a new announcement:

This weekend I made a decision together with the Admiral: within 4 years we plan to be the proud owners of a new boat and within 5 years we're going to set sail on a new circumnavigation.

The hunt is on ... again! ... this time based on actual experience from sailing from Norway to Australia. I hope the hunt will be as exciting as it was last time Hopefully I can avoid some of the I had with my last boat!

A lot of you were instrumental in my last search, so this should be a fun journey.
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Old 25-09-2011, 09:38   #455
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

Not the latest and greatest Fastcat?
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Old 25-09-2011, 09:49   #456
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

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Not the latest and greatest Fastcat?
Nope, not even close. I plan to buy a boat I'll get my money back for, when I sell her: Not loose half of what I invested. I also have to say that sailing halfway across the Globe has taught me what I really want in and from a boat, so my priorities are different now.
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Old 25-09-2011, 15:36   #457
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

Andreas - I would be interested in what your priorities were, and are now.
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Old 25-09-2011, 16:00   #458
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FastCat Propulsion Question, & New Priorities

Quote:
Originally Posted by SettingSail2009 View Post
8 months have passed since I sold "African Innovation" my FastCat 435 and bought a house in Stavanger (In Norway for the geographically challenged). Being back on land after sailing for 2 1/2 years has had all the usual challenges, but because I'm studying towards a "Master Unlimited" certification I've kept in close touch with the oceans. It's funny to think that I began this thread in April 2007 when I started looking for a boat. As such this seems to be the perfect place for a new announcement:

This weekend I made a decision together with the Admiral: within 4 years we plan to be the proud owners of a new boat and within 5 years we're going to set sail on a new circumnavigation.
I am not that familiar with these vessels, but I believe I've heard that they experimented with a number of different 'drive legs' that were retractable?

Did you have such a drive system, or have knowledge of same??

Quote:
Originally Posted by SettingSail
The hunt is on ... again! ... this time based on actual experience from sailing from Norway to Australia. I hope the hunt will be as exciting as it was last time Hopefully I can avoid some of the I had with my last boat!

A lot of you were instrumental in my last search, so this should be a fun journey.

I also have to say that sailing halfway across the Globe has taught me what I really want in and from a boat, so my priorities are different now.
I look forward to your critiques, and those items that now seem more important to you on a new vessel. Will you post them here?...or start a new subject thread??

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Old 26-09-2011, 09:58   #459
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

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Andreas - I would be interested in what your priorities were, and are now.
what Factor said...
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Old 26-09-2011, 11:41   #460
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

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I look forward to your critiques, and those items that now seem more important to you on a new vessel. Will you post them here?...or start a new subject thread?
I'll post them here. There have been several threads where people ask for help or share their views and since I started this thread when looking for my last boat, it seems natural to do it here again.

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Andreas - I would be interested in what your priorities were, and are now.
My priorities will be somewhat similar, but different from last time. Since I'm planning to sail in warm climates, I'll be going for a cat again. Like last time I'm looking for a boat to circumnavigate with, so it needs to be of a certain size to accomplish that. It's natural to look at the boat I had (a FastCat 435) and evaluate her and measure my needs now and compare her with other boats I have experience with. It also needs to be said that I havenít been onboard every cat around, which is where other forum members come in handy with their experience.

Here is my list of things Iím focusing on this time around (not in order of preference):

1. Sizewise I want a boat not smaller than 44 feet, because Iíd like 4 double cabins, 2 heads and plenty of storage space. With long offshore passages in mind (and from a safety perspective) having a boat of that size is good. The minus with having a cat and in particular a big one is that slipping her can both be difficult and expensive. Iíve found that very few slips can accommodate you once you get off the beaten path. Maintenance is also a pain, because the bigger the boat, the larger the area you need to do maintenance on. If you need to dodge a storm and go into a marina youíll pay more than an arm and a leg for a big cat.

2. 4 cabins Ė I want 4 double cabins, because then itís easier to have guests onboard, easier to do charters, and easier to have crew (in my case paying crew) onboard. Any cabin not used is great for storage. I only had two cabins on the FastCat and found it to be a pain in the ass. Iím not a fan of owner hulls, because I think too much space is devoted to the heads, something I personally find to be a waste of space.

3. 2 heads Ė I only want 2 heads, because any more than that, is a loss of space, represents extra maintenance and I donít want more through-hulls than absolutely necessary.

4. Galley up Ė On several passages if I had galley down, we would not have made any food. On the hook itís social and nice to have the galley close to the cockpit. This is a personal choice and I know a lot of people think differently. The galley I had on the FastCat rocked, it was probably my favorite thing about the boat.

5. A known brand from a reputable builder with a solid number of cats behind them. This was a recommendation I got from Phil Berman (Multihull Company). I ignored that piece of wisdom and lost heaps of money when I sold the FastCat. Now I will only consider brands that are well known, because it is the only way to guarantee that youíll be able to get remotely close to what you paid for the boat when the journey is over. Small brands are almost like selling a home-built boat, you could be lucky and get what you hoped, but you probably wonít. (The brands that fit my description: Fountaine Pajot, Lagoon, Catana, Outremer, Privilege, Voyage, Leopard, Admiral, St. Francis, Prout, Seawind, Dean, Catalac plus a few others, that I canít think of, off the top of my head).

6. A large and comfortable cockpit. On the FastCat I could fit 5 people comfortably around the cockpit table Ö I would like to fit 10. The cockpit area was used for virtually every meal and every social gathering, so to have a large and comfortable one is imperative. The trampolines were also used during social gatherings and I have pictures of when I had 35 people in the tramps during a birthday celebration in Tahiti, so you can definitely say that a cat lends itself to a party

7. Yanmar diesel engines. Call me old fashioned, but I would not dare to set sail on a circumnavigation with any sort of hybrid or electrical engine, no matter what the builder claims about zero maintenance etc. Things always break and when they do, youíll be hard pressed to find an electrician or mechanic that knows how to fix the new engines in the Marquesas or on some outlaying atoll. I had Volvo engines on the first boat I had and Iím not a fan. I had Lombardini engines on the FastCat and my verdict is: stay well away from them. It is tough to get spare parts for them anywhere, but in Italy. The only brand I would feel 100% comfortable with is Yanmar engines Ö mostly because Iíve always envied people whoíve had them. Speaking of engines Ö A nice and easily accessible engine area would also be a bonus.

8. On the FastCat, the salon was large and very nice looking, and could comfortably seat 8 - 10 people, but we never used it. In the tropics we used the cockpit unless the weather was absolutely horrendous (out of 100 days, we might have eaten 5 meals inside). So I will have a much smaller focus on the salon, unless it can be incorporated to the cockpit, like on the Seawind. A nice salon is very handy if youíre in cold climates, but then having too big a salon becomes a problem, because itís a bitch to warm up and keep warm (I tried in Norway Ö brrrrrr).

9. I put focus on a forward facing nav-station when I bought the FastCat, but again, I hardly used it. And think the space could have been better utilized. Itís nice to have an area where you keep all the instruments, but unless the boat is really big I personally donít find a need for it. Any chart work was done on the salon or cockpit table and all we really used the nav station for was to check the different instruments if we were inside, so they could have been mounted ďanywhereĒ.

10. When I bought the FastCat, speed and the ability to sail well in light airs were high on my list. This will not be a huge focus this time around. Iím not buying a boat to race from A to B: Iíll get there when I get there: Ö So the passage took 21 days instead of 18 Ö So what? ... Weíve had an awesome time on every passage Iíve been on and whenever a passage was over it always seemed like it came too fast.
My point about speed is that so many other factors also come into play. I was guilty of laughing at Lagoons before I bought the FastCat. I called them condomarans and worse. The thing is that I was thoroughly beaten by both a Lagoon 440, and a Fountain Pajot 38 when I sailed across the Atlantic with my FastCat. When I sailed from Panama to Galapagos, we used the least amount of fuel out of the other cruisers to get there, because we hardly needed to motor. Everyone else were pretty amazed, because we had stocked up on beer and booze before we left Panama and had 52 cases of beer, 3 cases of rum a bunch of wine with us and still had a good sail. But then on the next passage from Galapagos to the Marquesas even 35 foot monohulls beat us. Why you ask? Timing: They were more fortunate with the wind then, I the passage before, and so forth. Timing and luck are such important factors on long passages, because the blasted GRIB files are highly unreliable once you get away from the main passages. So while I wouldnít buy a big, heavy and slow cat and then proceed to overload it, Iím not going to be blinded by promises or claims made by builders that their boat is the best thing since the wheel was invented. Iíll try to buy as light as possible and try not to overload it, and with a few different sails at hand, Iíll be good to go.

Thereís naturally a bunch of other things Iíll keep in mind as well: Like how the electrics are done onboard. Iíd contemplate generator vs. solar panels vs. wind generator (I HATED my wind generator, but LOVED my solar panels.) I also hated the watermaker I had Ö It was supposedly the best in the business, but it never worked and was a huge disappointment. I'd also steer well clear of air condition and what I call unnecessary luxuries, because they drain the batteries (or force you to run the engines or generator) and normally break when you need them the most.

I can already see that this post is getting ridiculously long, so Iíll stop now Ö My other points are not so important when it comes to the actual boat, but with how to equip it and what to bring with me: A big anchor, a big dinghy and minimum a 15 hp outboard, chief on that list ;-) Ö But I digress! If you have any questions, fire away, but please remember, this is what I discovered after roughly 2.5 years of cruising. Itís not right for everyone, thank God, because then weíd all be squabbling over the same boat, but for me this is what Iíve discovered.
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Old 26-09-2011, 12:12   #461
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Re: FastCat Propulsion Question, & New Priorities

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Originally Posted by beiland View Post
I am not that familiar with these vessels, but I believe I've heard that they experimented with a number of different 'drive legs' that were retractable?

Did you have such a drive system, or have knowledge of same??
No, I didn't have the retractable system, nor have I seen it in action, except for in this youtube clip: Green Motion retractable electric propulsion generating - YouTube

I wrote an article about Green eMotion for a Norwegian sailing magazine about 2 years ago, where I amongst other things talked about the retractable propulsion system.

In the video you can see the 10 kw electrical motors with forward facing props, mounted on the retractable bracket. Forward facing props are (according to the builder) 15% more efficient. I like the idea about lifting the motors completely out of the water, so that you get zero drag from them when you're sailing (this also frees up space under the bunks) and makes it easy to work on them through hatches in the cockpit. You can also use them to free-spin and charge your batteries when you're sailing 7 knots or faster.

I am however weary about unprotected forward facing props, because there's so much crap floating around, especially in harbors (when you normally use your engines) and with nothing in front to shield them, I can definitely see a problem. I also think that the set up looks a bit flimsy, but according to the builder they can sustain a force equivalent to 2 tons and the lifting mechanism can lift 400 kg.

I think the research they are doing is exciting, but I'm not convinced if it's something I'd like on my next boat (if I was getting an electric cat ... which I'm not). I think I'd like engines that could retract inside the hull like daggerboards if I was going down the retractable engine road, but that's just my take.
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Old 26-09-2011, 12:36   #462
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

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I can already see that this post is getting ridiculously long, so Iíll stop now Ö My other points are not so important when it comes to the actual boat, but with how to equip it and what to bring with me: A big anchor, a big dinghy and minimum a 15 hp outboard, chief on that list ;-) Ö But I digress! If you have any questions, fire away, but please remember, this is what I discovered after roughly 2.5 years of cruising. Itís not right for everyone, thank God, because then weíd all be squabbling over the same boat, but for me this is what Iíve discovered.
Very informative.

I don't have your experience but agree with almost all from my research.

If today was the day I would look at Antares 44i.

It does not check all your boxes (all but 3) but..............
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Old 27-09-2011, 08:09   #463
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

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I'll post them here. There have been several threads where people ask for help or share their views and since I started this thread when looking for my last boat, it seems natural to do it here again.

6. A large and comfortable cockpit. On the FastCat I could fit 5 people comfortably around the cockpit table Ö I would like to fit 10. The cockpit area was used for virtually every meal and every social gathering, so to have a large and comfortable one is imperative. The trampolines were also used during social gatherings and I have pictures of when I had 35 people in the tramps during a birthday celebration in Tahiti, so you can definitely say that a cat lends itself to a party

8. On the FastCat, the salon was large and very nice looking, and could comfortably seat 8 - 10 people, but we never used it. In the tropics we used the cockpit unless the weather was absolutely horrendous (out of 100 days, we might have eaten 5 meals inside). So I will have a much smaller focus on the salon, unless it can be incorporated to the cockpit, like on the Seawind. A nice salon is very handy if youíre in cold climates, but then having too big a salon becomes a problem, because itís a bitch to warm up and keep warm (I tried in Norway Ö brrrrrr).
.
The Seawind has a very clever solution, with the hinged doors making the salon and cockpit into one large open space. If needed, the salon can be closed. It would be great if more cats had this approach.

(bear in mind I never been on a Seawind, so my observation is purely from looking at the web)
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Old 27-09-2011, 08:18   #464
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

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The Seawind has a very clever solution, with the hinged doors making the salon and cockpit into one large open space. If needed, the salon can be closed. It would be great if more cats had this approach.
I've seen the pictures as well and like the look of it. A sliding door does the trick, but hoisting the door out of the way is an innovative approach.
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Old 27-09-2011, 15:40   #465
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Re: Characteristics of a Circumnavigating Cat

Experts, please chime in. What is your take on a 1985 Catalac 12 meter? I know it is heavy, but that is a plus for me as I plan to pull the diesels, fuel tanks, and replace with electric drive which means a lot of heavy batteries. But overall, with the rather low price, it is what I'm leaning towards, but am looking forward to all of your input.
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